Is the Sixers Defense That Good?
by Michael Levin on Jan 31, 2012 7:57 AM PST
in Read and React
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PrintAfter a win last night over the Magic in which it looked like the Sixers would hold Dwight Howard's team to under 60 points until a late surge, it seems like the right time to talk about just how phenomenal the Sixers defense has been over the first 21 games of the season.
They're easily the number one ranked defense in the league, locking down a defensive efficiency of 92.3. The league average is 99.8 and the first team behind the Sixers is the Eastern Conference leading Chicago Bulls at 94.6. That's not even close. Doug Collins' team has held offenses to under 80 points 7 times already this season, including three straight games. Opponents are only averaging 86.1 points against them, good for first in the league. The defense is the reason for all the 20+ point blowouts, all the points in transition, and mostly why they're sitting at 15-6 with nobody on the team averaging over 16 points per game.
With Andre Iguodala and Evan Turner locking down the wings, Jrue Holiday keeping better hold of his man up top, and the surprisingly terrific Spencer Hawes/Elton Brand/Nikola Vucevic trio down low, they've been able to mask the inefficiency of Jodie Meeks and Louis Williams and (to a pleasingly lesser extent) Thaddeus Young.
But are they this good? I mean, really. This is phenomenal. Can they sustain holding opponents to a 41.8% field goal percentage while shooting under 30% from beyond the arc? I don't have a clue. Through almost a third of the season, the Sixers have the best team defense in basketball, and that's without a dominant big man to back them up. That's damn impressive.
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Lavoy
No love for Lavoy Allen? Not even to a lesser, lesser extent?? I think the rookie has stepped up in the absence of Vuc and Hawes…
by Illestndaville on Jan 31, 2012 8:15 AM PST via Android app reply actions
The guy hustled and played his butt off last night. I’m certainly impressed with him so far.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
I’m impressed with how he defends screens. He seems pretty solid defending the low post, too. But i knew those things watching his college highlights. The real big surprise for me is his ability to score a bit off the bench. He appears to be a better scorer in the professional game than against the college zone. Playing overseas might have helped his pick and pop….glad he went over there during the lockout.
Lack of big man
I think that the Sixers lack of a big man may be critical to their success in team defense. Everyone is held accountable for their defense (and those who aren’t so efficient are at least competent enough to not drag down the team), and knowing that there is no go-to guy down low makes the team buckle down, the only star I would really want down low is D. Howard. Or a maybe a young Tim Duncan.
Michael starting to turn the corner?
I think this is a more impressive commentary on Doug Collins then it is for the individual players. I love that man.
by BrandonB on Jan 31, 2012 8:37 AM PST via iPhone app reply actions
Always with a twinge of “this can’t be real” skepticism!
by Michael Levin on Jan 31, 2012 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
The current stretch of opponents should put all of the nay-sayers to rest. I don’t think they’re a contender, but they’re certainly a good notch above what they were last season. The most impressive part is they’re playing this well with guys who aren’t fully developed yet. It’s exciting to say the least.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
I think they are playing good D, but I see a lot of bad basketball being played league wide. The schedule is a big part of it they have no practice time and play game after game with a whole lot of travel mixed in.
by pb111 on Jan 31, 2012 8:42 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
no doubt. offenses are way behind defenses to start the season.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 31, 2012 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s possible for the Sixers defense to get any better.
by Michael Levin on Jan 31, 2012 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe a better way to say it is that I hope the Sixers can adjust to offenses finally getting things going
by bandwagoner on Jan 31, 2012 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
For sure
But everyone’s offense has been bad, which means that everyone is benefiting from improved defensive stats relatively equally, and we’re still out front.
Sure. I was more talking about looking at things from a historical standpoint.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 31, 2012 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
I agree that offense hasn't been great across the league
But everyone is playing these offenses. The Sixers are still the best by a pretty good margin.
What I mean to say, if offenses were better, the Sixers numbers would be worse, for sure, but probably so would everyone else’s.
I have not been able to watch a game since January 20th but the Defense looked really good before then and from everything I have read, they have maintained their high level of play.
As others have mentioned, I wonder how much of the success is because teams are still finding their offense and if the Sixers D will fall off some as the season goes and legs get tired?
Some guy at PSU Hershey Med Center just discovered a virus that eats cancer. Where were the CNN trucks for that? THON will probably break $10 mil this year. Put that on "Outside the Lines".
Can I get stats for why Holiday is a better defender than Lou or Meeks this year? A blanket general statement like that is nice, but 82games opponent’s PER says that both Lou and Meeks have defended their man better than Holiday has this year. I know part of that is different competition, but I’d like at least some justification for a statement like that. In past years, that might have been true, but this year? I’m not so sure.
I think it's a matter of conext.
This was touched on this site yesterday about Andre Iguodala. Jrue may constantly be guarding a tougher opponent than Meeks or Williams. If Meeks or Williams are guarding a below average player every night, then it makes sense that they would likely hold these below average players to below average standards. Whereas, if Jrue is guarding a good or great player, his PER against may not be quite as low as Meeks or Williams due to the player he’s guarding simply being better.
A good analysis (which I am in no way equipped to do) would be to look at the average PER of the players that Jrue (or Meeks/Lou) are guarding, and then judge their PER against relative to these numbers, or something to that effect. If you did that, I’d wager that you’d find numbers that would bolster Jrue’s case as a better defender.
By the way, I’m huge into advanced stats when it comes to baseball, but relatively new to them in the world of basketball, so if the above already exists, forgive me.
Not able to access the stats currently, but something to keep in mind also is that Jrue is almost always guarding the more talented guard when he’s on the court with Lou/Meeks are on the court.
by Michael Levin on Jan 31, 2012 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I’m aware. That’s why I didn’t say that Lou or Meeks is definitely better than Holiday. I was just curious because the unadjusted numbers are so much in favor of them that I was curious if the adjusted numbers still put Lou and Meeks considerably behind Jrue.
I don’t know of any unadjusted numbers in terms of opponents PER.
But, as I said in the other post, Jrue holding a 17-19 guy to a 13 PER I think is much better than Meeks holding a 12 PER guy to an 11.2 PER.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 31, 2012 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
When Jrue is on the floor the team holds teams to 92.8 pts per 48 minutes.
When Jrue is on the bench the team gives up 102.7 pts per 48 minutes.
So either Jruue is playing great defense or his teammates are really masking him.
In comparison, when Meeks is on the floor the team gives up 95.0 pts per 48 min. 95.8 when Meeks is on the bench. So despite Meeks playing mostly next to Iguodala and Jrue (the players with the best on/off defensive numbers) he still does not net a positive effect on the defense. While Lou measures a negative team defensive number.
Couldn’t that just reflect a pace difference? Meeks plays mainly next to Jrue, so his numbers wouldn’t be much different on/off if the difference is caused by pace. However, Lou plays a lot of minutes that Jrue doesn’t. If Lou’s pace is faster than Jrue’s pace, that would explain a large chunk of that, would it not?
Those numbers I gave you are normalized per 100 possessions (at 82games.com) so that means that are normalized for pace.
If you want to look at point differential, the team on average is 3 pts better when Meeks is on the bench (per 100 possessions.) While the team is 6.4 pts worse when Jrue is on the Bench. They are also 3 pts better when Iguodala is on the bench.
So the team gives up less points when Jrue is on the floor. They also have a net positive pt differential while Jrue is on the floor. While for Meeks the reverse is the case.
That does not “prove” that Jrue is the better defender, but it makes it a stretch to argue otherwise.
Have you reached the conclusion yet that Lou shouldn’t be starting? If not, it should come eventually.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
Hope ur not serious. Lou’s defense is much better in 20-25 min off the bench than as a starter. And with the starters, he would kind of kill the ball movement they’ve worked so hard to create as a team. Lou’s a weapon. But he is a sharp knife that gets dull with excessive use…..in more ways than one.
Turner on Collins
Asked Evan Turner in a 1-on-1 interview Tuesday if he’s cool with Doug Collins.
Turner: “Yeah. Why wouldn’t I be?”
Me: “Did things just happen in the heat of the moment at the end of Monday’s game?”
Turner: “I guess so. I’m not really thinking about it anymore. I went to sleep. It’s a new day.”
Collins declined to be quoted on the matter.
Thanks for posting this. Turner seems like an easygoing kid in general, but honestly I’m glad to see that fight in him. Doug is an awesome coach, but he’s not perfect. Nothing wrong with having some competitive spirit and challenging your coach.
In any case, I hope some guys were practicing free throws in the background.
by PhillyWarrior on Jan 31, 2012 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
We’ll see after this tough stretch
"I quit school in the 6th grade because of pneumonia. Not because I had it, but because I couldn't spell it."
by secondroundpick on Jan 31, 2012 12:01 PM PST reply actions
2 years ago OKC had a very good defense without great post defenders. Their def rtg was 9th in the NBA despite having a frontcourt rotation of Kristic, Jeff Green, Collison and Ibaka. And Ibaka was only a 20 year old rookie giving them 18 min per game while Jeff Green was playing PF for most of his 37 min/g.
Collison is a decent rebounder, but I don’t see Kristic/Collison for 42 min/g as any more of a deterrent than Hawes/Voose/Batman.
So I don’t know if you can be the leagues best defense with a weak frontcourt. But you can be a very good one with the right scheme for your personnel.
what the Sixers did last night was genius, most teams only have one guy who can score inside, so they keyed in on that guy by boxing him out with the biggest body they had, and had Iggy, Turner, or Jrue rotate in for the double. The main with defense is speed. Fast, determined players on defense can crowd lanes, get deflection, and maintain proper position.
by Dan Pearson on Jan 31, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
I keep hoping...
…but at this point, I’m not going to be convinced this team is anywhere close to “for real” until they beat Chicago, Miami, or one of the Western powers. So far, they are 0-for against those teams. It’s fun to watch them plow over the Whiz of the world, but that’s different than being for real. Miami, Portland (who is only a “power” in the loosest sense, because they’re almost impossible to beat at the Rose Garden), and Denver have already beaten them. Tomorrow night’s game might show us something, one way or the other.
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, there will be no trade for Monta!
Defense isn't only played as a team.....
The NBA more than any other team professional sport often comes down to a game of individual matchups. Collins has shown repeatedly that in close end of game coaching and matchup decisions, that he does not cut the mustard. With Big Nik and Lavoy, and with several players slimming down or getting in better shape (most notably Hawes), the defense is definitely better this year. But so far, Collins decisions in the areas I have mentioned are not.
If this team is going to live up to it’s current billing as an elite defensive club, Big Nik is going to have to play a bigger role once the level of competition rises. And Doug has to get smarter. Too often, Jrue is not the one defending the opposition’s top guards in late game situations. And too often, players are automatically switching in late game situations as well. Also, the Brand/Thad combo will not get it done in crunch time against the league’s bigger teams.
This team has a chance to become an elite defensive club. But they aren’t there yet.
If the Sixers aren't an elite defensive team
then I don’t think anyone has the right to call themselves an elite defensive team.
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