Preposterous Criticisms Of Andre Iguodala
by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 12:05 PM PST
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"Andre Iguodala thinks he's Kobe Bryant!"
"I'd like Iguodala if he'd accept his role offensively."
These are some of the claims you'll hear if you turn on talk radio, or even visit some 76ers blogs or message boards.
Let's step back and think about that rationally. This is a guy who this year is averaging 10.1 field goal attempts per game in over 34 minutes. He averaged 11.3 attempts last year in nearly 37 minutes.
Not only is he not even remotely close to Kobe Bryant's field goal attempts (24.2 per game in 38.4 minutes) or usage rate (38.2 to Iguodala's 18.9), he's not even close to the team leader in either categories. He ranks 10th on the team in field goal attempts per minute and 7th on the team in usage percentage.
Kobe Bryant indeed.
Here's the rub, as I can already hear detractors complain about paying Iguodala $13 million per year to take 10 field goals per game: Even with limited touches, he's 3rd on the team in PER and 1st in Win Shares. Iguodala is quietly having the most productive season of his career.
Of players who have played at least 100 minutes this season with a usage rate below 20, Iguodala's 19.2 PER is tops in the league among perimeter players, as is his 0.196 Win Shares per 48 minutes.
Iguodala supporters have long argued that he would thrive in a non-lead role, and that he was being asked to fulfill a role his skills didn't fit. Improve the teammates around him and you could go back to appreciating the insanely valuable all-around player. While Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner aren't near their apex offensively, their progression has allowed us to see glimpses of how valuable Iguodala can be even with a decreased offensive role.
Iguodala has always been an underrated catch and shoot player, ranking in the top half of the league in terms of efficiency on catch and shoot situations, something he has done 4 of the past 5 years. Because he's become less of a focal point and is forcing his offense less he's taking less of his shots off the dribble, where he's always been weak. The percentage of his half-court offense coming from off-the-dribble jump shots is the lowest it's been since Allen Iverson left (the first time).
The continued emergence of Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner, and even the continual progression of Thaddeus Young and Louis Williams, has allowed Iguodala to take a back seat offensively. He hasn't been dominating the ball. He's not holding back Holiday or Turner. He's allowing them to develop, while still being an insanely valuable player in his own right.
He's not even "thinking he's Kobe" in late game situations. He's averaging a measly 13.5 field goal attempts per 48 minutes in clutch situations according to 82games.com. This is a drastic change from past years (21.9 field goal attempts/48 last year, 22.6 the year before in 2009-2010, 20.6 in 2008-2009, and 20.1 in 2007-2008). It's also well behind Louis Williams (41.7 field goal attempts per 48 minutes in the clutch, at 36.4% shooting. That's not a typo), and Thaddeus Young (18.7 field goal attempts/48), and right in line with Jrue Holiday (13.4 field goal attempts/48). And he hasn't complained about it once.
Furthermore, his passing is as valuable as ever. Iguodala's always been a great transition player, and sometimes people falsely use this to diminish the impact he has had as a creator in the half-court. So far this season, his half-court assist-to-turnover ratio is actually better than his transition assist-to-turnover ratio, and 76% of his 5.0 assists per game have come in half-court sets.
And he's still playing all-league quality defense.
Using 82games.com once again, Iguodala is holding opponents to a PER or 8.4. A reminder, the league average is 15.0, and it gives Iguodala a +10.7 PER differential. These stats (both opponents PER and PER differential) are often times seriously misused and not necessarily representative of the point you're trying to makes. A perfect example of this is Jodie Meeks, who is holding his man to an 11.2 PER. That number seems impressive when you look at it in a vacuum, but Jodie Meeks is almost always guarding the opponents weakest offensive player. So holding a guy who typically averages an 11 or 12 PER to 11.2 isn't all that great of an accomplishment.
Iguodala, on the other hand, is almost always defending the opponents best player. Holding a guy who typically averages a PER of 18-20 to 8.9 is borderline absurd. To put this in perspective, let's compare this to what other top defenders (as determined by the GM survey) are holding their man to: Kobe Bryant (12.4), Tony Allen (12.8), Rajon Rondo (13.1), LeBron James (9.9), Russell Westbrook (15.1).
Oh yeah, and he's the best defensive player on the best defensive team in the league. He's playing as well, if not better, defensively than any perimeter player in the league, and has been for the past 2 years.
So, he's not dominating the ball. He's not holding back Jrue Holiday or Evan Turner. He doesn't think he's Kobe Bryant or Paul Pierce, either during the first 3 quarters or the 4th. He's taking better quality shots, making his open shots, finding the open teammates, producing as much as anyone in the league who gets the ball as little as he does, and is defending as well as any perimeter player in the league.
Whether or not this means Iguodala will make the all-star team is another matter, and whether he should (or will) is something that will come up later. My short answer to that question is I think he should make it, but won't. Wing players averaging 13 points per game don't make their first all-star appearances traditionally. You either need big scoring numbers or previous history at the game.
That being said, it's time to stop obsessing over what Andre Iguodala doesn't do and appreciate what he does.
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That’s frustrating, no doubt, and a little bit perplexing.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
How dare he have any sort of weakness? He needs to be perfect in every faucet of the game to get my appreciation!
He's a top 5 player in the league right now
I’m getting the feeling that people aren’t for trading our best player anymore so I don’t want to stir controversy but according to WP48 hes contributed 4 wins and a .282 WP48.
That makes him a top 5 player
Some players in the league have higher WP48 but he stays healthy and plays a lot of minutes.
The only player better than him at his position is Lebron James.
I’m glad to have him on my team.
Just a random Iguodala picture I saw today
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
by tst29 on Jan 30, 2012 12:35 PM PST reply actions 8 recs
I throw my hands up in the air sometimes, sayin ayo, gotta let go!
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
Follow @Sohil_Doshi
bosh leads with the knee to deter defenders from wanting to take the charge. here, iguodala calls his bluff, and bosh obliges.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
My favorite NBA flop of all time
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
by tst29 on Jan 30, 2012 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
and in both the picture and the flash…. bosh gets the call!!! ta da !!!
the NBA… where amazing happens.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
thank you for writing this. I don’t think there is a team in the league that wouldn’t want Iggy, and his detractors usually have the dumbest things to say. Meanwhile, no one complains about Elton Brand and his 18 million dollar contract.
Iguodala is trade-able, Brand is not. People want to do something just for the sake of doing something. And if you’re not a championship caliber team, there’s always a scapegoat. i.e McNabb
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
sure, but the criticisms of Iggy usually have nothing to do with trade value, I’ve seen and heard comments like “I would trade Iggy for a lawn chair”.
by Dan Pearson on Jan 30, 2012 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
That was my main point of the article. Not to push Iguodala as perfect, but to whine about the number or arguments I hear on a daily basis that make no sense.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
people have to complain about something, and it’s usually for other reasons than to make a logical argument.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
In some ways Iguodala reminds me a bit of Jason Kidd’s first 9 years in the league. He lacked great offensive numbers asside from assists, but he dramatically effected the game with his passing, defense, rebounding and ability to lead the break.
I certainly would put Kidd on a higher level, but they share some parallels. Also, Kidd did not get past the 1st round until he was 28 even after his dominant physical tools had peaked… Iguodala just turned 28. Also Kidd developed a reliable 3pt shot later in his career. But Kidd developed his FT% from mid 60’s to 80’s while Iguodala went in the opposite direction.
In their defense, they went from seeing 3 guys average 20ppg to 1 guy average 30 ppg to having their best player average 15/6/6.
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
Not sure if this is relevant or not but for some reason I thought of this Red Auerbach quote:
"Individual honors are nice, but no Celtic has ever gone out of his way to achieve them. We have never had the league’s top scorer. In fact, we won seven league championships without placing even one among the league’s top 10 scorers. Our pride was never rooted in statistics."
Anyone who doesn’t understand Iguodala’s importance on a basketball team needs to find out who Red Auerbach is.
I think what frustrates people about Iguodala is he has the athleticism to be a star, and he has show brilliant flashes of play. Since he has been the best player since Iverson left the team, people have placed him as the “supposed to be star” by default. They have come to expect big scoring numbers from him since this is the most obvious sign of “production” on a stat sheet (and during an in-game experience).
Since this has been his label, and he hasn’t produced the scoring numbers or super clutch, gaming winning performances that the casual fan has expected of him, he takes more crap than most other players. Combine this with the fact that philly is a tough sports town to begin with (can’t wait to hear more crap about Ryan Howard) and someone of Igoudala’s skill set and ability will go severely under-appreciated.
In fact, he might just be one of the most under-appreciated players in the league. Even if the sixers can prove to be one of the top teams this season, I don’t think he’ll get much more respect. Oh, the power of scoring 20ppg…
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
by jefu on Jan 30, 2012 1:30 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Igoudala's tripple double
On the radio “well he only scored 10 points”
well… sirs…
he scored 10 points
had 10 assists (responsible for 20 points not counting 3s)
had 10 rebounds, if you assume half of those were not made by a sixer and put back for points he was responsible for another 10 points…
in my eyes he was responsible in a 40 point swing in the game and that is why he is valuable to the team.
and thats before i start talking about man on man defense/guarded man shot %
PHI "We Know Drama"
by DaaaBirdsDaBirds on Jan 30, 2012 1:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
in short
people do not seem to understand that a player can be responsible for points without literally putting the ball into that orange circle thing.
PHI "We Know Drama"
by DaaaBirdsDaBirds on Jan 30, 2012 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
i dont listen to much talk radio. in fact, i dont listen at all.
i limit my sources to the bloggosphere and common journalists.
outside of the day-to-day conversation with the uninformed sports fan, i’ve got nothing but rave reviews about iguodala. hell, i’m an iggy-enthusiast and i’m more of the harsh critic about him in most of my dealings.
i’m guilty of wanting more from him offensively because i KNOW that he is freakishly athletic and if he puts his mind to it can get to the rim almost at will depending on the match-up. but i’d be interesting to here/see some of the things you guys say go on amongst the iguodala doubters.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 1:43 PM PST reply actions
if he puts his mind to it can get to the rim almost at will depending on the match-up
He doesn’t have as great of a first step as some of the other athletic freaks in the league. Also, when he’s forced to drive left he tends to go for the step-back jumper rather than finish his drive.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
This. And he’s a pretty mediocre (perhpas worse) finisher at the rim.
I actually think one of the biggest problems with people failing to appreciate Andre Iguodala is a misrepresentation of his skills.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
when players are bad finishers at the rim, its a product of not finishing strong most times. if he gets all the way to the hoop, he has to dunk the basketball instead of a finger roll or using the old english. if he can’t get all the way to the rim, he doesn’t have to finish, he is a great passer in traffic and as i just found out, an awesome self-ally-oop guy haha.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
That’s entirely overly simplistic and simply not true. Not every ball is dunk-able, not even for LeBron. Iguodala has terrible touch, which by definition has nothing to do with dunking.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
i’m not talking about video games where you just walk up and dunk on people. but if you watch the games, there are obvious times when he could get to the rim and does not do so.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
You’re right. I don’t watch the games.
We’re talking about two different issues.
Derek Bodner
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by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
figure of speech man dont take it personal. can i make it up to you :)
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
He gets cut off easily when he tries to get to the rim. He forces a fadeaway jumper when this happens and he doesn’t hit them at a good rate. I guess this is why people are frustrated with his “clutch” performance. He uses this shot a lot and has missed vs. NJ and Denver this year. Sometimes it falls like it did vs. Orlando 3 years ago
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
Getting cut off – when he can get by his defender, he usually draws a double-team. I imagine this is due to his explosiveness rather than his ability to finish around the rim, which Derek touched on as being mediocre at best. He can counter this with his passing ability – driving and dishing low to the open man near the basket or kicking it out to the open jumper-shooter after drawing the double. This is why he and Brand work well together.
Iguodala is great at setting up others, but he’s not good at setting up himself. This, upon a few other things is what keeps him from being an elite scorer at his position. This is what upsets most fans who see scoring as the end-all, be-all and ignore his other great basketball skills.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
this happens to everyone. i’m saying that in my opinion he doesn’t get “forced” to everytime, but instead surrenders and chooses the jumpshot.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think you really understand what you’re talking about.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
what i’m saying is very simple. iguodala settles for jumpshots when he doesn’t have to.
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Feb 1, 2012 2:55 AM PST up reply actions
i noticed that. but that is what i’m saying its pretty much tendency moreso than inability to do it
ok, now re-read in Doug Collins' voice...
by J.Michael Woodson on Jan 30, 2012 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
To tell you the truth I was an Iguodala hater until you guys along with Brian from depressedfan brainwashed me.
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
by tst29 on Jan 30, 2012 1:49 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I hate to say it but I think Michael Jordan (my favorite childhood player) is responsible for the current public obsession with ppg scoring totals. Before him Larry Bird and Magic were winning titles averaging points in the high teens. Then came along Jordan winning titles averaging an incredible insanely efficient 30+ ppg and that hopelessly became the new barometer to judge importance on a team.
by BrandonB on Jan 30, 2012 2:05 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions
Some of my favorite quotes about Iggy from these boards:
“If Andre Iguodala was a true 17 ppg scorer, the Sixers would be a better team.”
“He is a coward”
“He quit on the team against the Heat last year, and he’s doing it again now.” Against the Nets 1/25/12
Just talkin about practice
Iguana’s never made an all-star team
/Tony from Mayfair ~ WIP’d
by dp on Jan 30, 2012 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
You're right BUT...
You’re right to an extent and I agree he has been better this year BUT just putting a lot of stats out there is a mistake. The reason some of those insults get thrown out there is because he takes absolutely terrible, ill-advised shots quite often during the most pivotal times in the game. That’s why casual fans throw out those accusations. That’s when they’re playing the closest attention.
So no, he isn’t Kobe and he’s been better this year than ever before, but as long as he makes really bad decisions with the ball often enough at pivotal times in the game, he’s going to draw the full ire of the Philly basketball fan that doesn’t truly understand the sport.
So no, he isn’t Kobe and he’s been better this year than ever before, but as long as he makes really bad decisions with the ball often enough at pivotal times in the game, he’s going to draw the full ire of the Philly basketball fan that doesn’t truly understand the sport.
That’s my point. He’s barely using the ball in these sets. His 4th in terms of field goal attempts during these situations. He’s a role player even then. Yet Louis williams can hot the ball shooting 35% and be considered a “closer”.
These are tired and old arguments.
Derek Bodner
SBN Philly || LibertyBallers || DraftExpress || NBAPlaybook.com
derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
Follow @derekbodner
by Derek Bodner on Jan 30, 2012 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
There will always be one...
So Sixers fan here.... just asking a question.
so I heard you guy are 8.5 mil over the cap. Who do you see leaving next year?
by BIBTD on Jan 28, 2012 6:14 PM PST reply actions
the rest of the fans
follow me on twitter: @danieldresden
by dandresden
he only takes 10 shots per game, and he scores more than 10 per game, so how many of his shots are actually inadvisable? What, is he supposed to make every shot?
by Dan Pearson on Jan 31, 2012 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
Got this on Twitter.
ive watched every single game for the last 4 yrs & iggy has contributed to more losses then wins not even over exaggerating
I love how people make clearly subjective comments like this and state it as if it’s just plain fact without hesitation.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
I bet he’s from South Philly and walks around with a bottle of wawa ice tea,
Formerly known as The Pied Piper
Little does that guy know, people can actually research this and see that he isn’t “even over exaggerating,” he’s just wrong
Just talkin about practice
by The Mad Hopper on Jan 30, 2012 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
amen. Personally, I think iggy “won” the magic game.
by Dan Pearson on Jan 31, 2012 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
I hope everyone appreciates I’ve been biting my tongue about the 35% shooting of a certain Boss this whole thread.
Andre wasn’t suppose to have this kind of responsibility in the first place to be a 20ppg. I want you Iguodala haters honestly answer this: Would you turn down a Andre Iguodala contract if it were offered to you? No? Well then quiet down about the contract. It’s management’s fault.
Honestly, I almost hope that Andre’s uniform is retired by this team. His stats are great and it’s a shame that he doesn’t get more praise for it. If he were to get traded, it would seem like he’s likely to get booed on his first return to Philly. It’s really a shame if that’s the thanks you get. And people wonder why nobody wants to play for this team. Some of these fans are brutal. How many former Sixers this season have been booed?
I’m starting to realize more and more how valuable Andre is to this team. And trading him would create more problems than the return players could ever hope to fill. Unfortunately, people don’t realize how good they have something until it’s gone. It’s going to be the same with Andre too.
Dante Nelson-Staff Writer at "The Sixer Sense" and "Hardcourt Mayhem"
Follow on Twitter @Dantewrites
by Dalanel on Jan 30, 2012 4:10 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
AI gets a lot of grief in Philadelphia and I have certainly criticized him. He is the team’s best defender and he draws the tough assignment each night. Fair point. His free throw shooting is bothersome because he really should be better at the line. He also has a tendency to come up small in the clutch. Whether its missing the key free throw, or settling for a difficult jump shot during the final possession (rather than trying to take it to the rim and draw contact), I just never have the feeling he’ll come through. He had a tough job in Philly being pushed into the spotlight after Iverson. That may not be fair, and it’s not his fault that the sixers front office seemed to bid against themselves when signing him to his current agreement, but some of the criticism he gets is fair. But a lot is excessive.
What most folks nowadays lose sight of is that Andre Iguodala’s biggest problem is the perception that was created back when the original AI was here. People loved to say that Iguodala was this budding superstar who was being kept under wraps and held back by Iverson’s brand of play. Ok, so Iverson exits and the natural expectation then becomes that Iguodala should take off and take over. That ain’t never gonna happen. Now, people want to say that he’d be fine as a 2nd banana. Well, that’s all he ever was in the first place!! The same thing happened to Wetaherspoon many years ago who Harold Katz built up as a taller and better version of Barkley! Never happened! ’Spoon could never overcome trying to live up to that hype!
Late to this party but I’m glad Philly is showing some love to Dre. Kudos to the Jason Kidd comparison, I remember telling that to one of my buddies last year saying that he’s a legitimate trip doub threat. Literally the next two games, he snags TB’s. Had him eating out my hands the next two months :-p
Honestly I think Dre is the linchpin of this team. He has a toolbox skillset and unselfishness to go along with his incredible defense. Looking at our team, we’re arguably the most balanced team in the league that plays great defense – almost like the team is an extension of Dre’s abilities, which makes playing for Philly a veritable feast for his skillset. I don’t think that’s an accident, either. I think its Collins building around his favorite player on the roster.
His contract isn’t exactly monstrous either. He’s worth every penny and I think they drew it up correctly. Brand’s, on the other hand…we’ll need to amnesty him to get better during the offseason, most likely.
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