The Sixers Frontcourt

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 10, 2011 1:25 AM PDT

Everyone knows me as the guy that constantly rags on Iguodala and laments his and ultimately the team's shortcomings from the wing position. However, I've gotten a bit of a bad reputation in that I'm repetitive and I only repeat one argument. Well, a short defense. I'm not repetitive, I'm passionate. I just feel as though no one(from the FO to the fans), understands the true calamity of just how badly this team is built. And so, they cling to the upside of this badly built team. And I ask: What upside?

We were near(or at .500) during the Maurice Cheeks years, from the final vestiges of the A.I-Webber mess to the Dileo Sixers. Eddie Jordan merely happened to be the most incompetent head coach in NBA history and if not for his connections to this dreaded front office, he never would've gotten a job. Made even more insulting was the NBA community at the time praising that incompetent man. Given those circumstances, of course the team was doomed to take a hit. It's not like they were that great from the start. ANY coach could've propelled this team back to it's .500 state.

The only thing that makes what Collins did impressive, is that he did it without a starting center. Hawes is a 15-20 MPG 6 fouls type of big. He performed that role anyway as he nearly averaged 3 fouls in 20 minutes!

For as much as I like Vucecic, the fact that he has the same makeup as a Hawes is undeniable. And so, in a draft of bigs, we were unable to get even a project. Before I begin lamenting the front-court, I want to give an idea of what I like in a front-court.

I believe in hybrid bigs like a Thaddeus Young or a Shawn Marion type, but if you're going to go that route, then you need a defensive center(ALA, Dalembert or Howard those types). In the ideal world however, I'm an old schooler.

POUND THE PAINT! If not one dominate big, then two scoring bigs. Being able to attack the C/PF position and get another team's bigs in foul trouble opens up driving lanes, collaspes opposing defenses and gets high field goal percentage shots.

To this end, we signed Elton Brand and to be fair, the EB signing isn't what crippled this franchise(this goes back to the wing man argument, which I rehashed). Brand's more of a mid-range/high post kind of guy than a banger

but he gives us some size and muscle down there. However, Brand's 32. And the Speezy draft was stupid from the onset and it's stupid now. You know you have a center that's a malcontent and you know your targetting Brand. Why do you need to draft a jump shooting big? A big with question marks about work ethic no less?

Now, between Vucecic, Speezy, Brackins, Hawes we have the most untalented front-court in....quite some time. There are no shot blockers. Though Vucecic looks like a solid NBA-rebounder(10 RPG in the Pac-10. Not as good of a conference as it used to be but alas) .

The front-court is another reason we should BLOW it up(It being a 7-man rotation). Our best big is a flawed hybrid forward(Young), who unless he improves his rebounding and shooting won't give us a major advantage. Hybrid bigs attract attention. Young's just a very good scorer, plus even if Young attracts attention his lack of passing ability means we would rather him score anyway.

It's a gigantic mess and in more ways than one. I'm sorry for overly focusing on the wings. But our bigs as awful

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Are you saying the only purpose of a backup center is to go in and play hack-a-shaq for 15-20 mpg?

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 10, 2011 6:15 AM PDT via mobile reply actions

No, I’m saying that’s what Hawes IS. He’s a hack-a-Shaq 3rd-4th big(He could be more, but alas what you see is what you get. His athletic limitations and lack of drive for the game. Why Collins wanted to take a flyer on him, I haven’t an idea). A back-up center to me, would be somebody who can come in and fill a need.

For example, a guy like Channing Fyre would be exposed in 25+ MPG action. But, coming off the bench as a scoring big man that can stretch defenses, he’s a valuable weapon.

My belief is to make use of every player 1-12 and to get the roster to be as synergetic as possible.

IE: Wanna build around bigs? Get wings that can catch and shoot and play off the ball. Wanna build around wings? Get bigs that can finish around the rim or the jumper. ’

Those hack-a-Shaq bigs are valuable(see: Dwight Howard), but they shouldn’t recieve long-term contracts. If I had to choose between Reggie Evans and Spencer Hawes, I’d go Evans and remember the contract that Evans had was a bad one by most fans thoughts.

So I really don’t wanna extend Hawes if he gets paid anywhere close to Lou Williams money. For as flawed as Lou is, at least he brings something. Hawes is your 10-12th man.

And he was our starting center….. While I like Vucecic, I highly doubt that he is the “missing piece” for 50 wins. And while we’ve stated “build from within”, we stated that when we signed Brand and how well has that worked for us lately?

In all likelihood, 44 wins and that’s if everything goes right(and of course, if the lockout ends before we miss any regular season games).

Hopefully Harris and CO kick Stefanski/Thorn from their jobs(Thorn had a HOF PG and got absolutely 0 titles for it in a weakened NBA. Including his present “activity”, I don’t think we’re getting anything more than Stefanski 2.0 and that means wasting Jrue’s prime) .

Why is it that these below mediocre GM’S seem to flourish in the NBA? Owners complain about bad contracts, they should be complaining about their hirees giving out those contracts

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 10, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions

The Sixers stated their next goal is 50 wins. I can tell that is the goal of the coach and the FO. I just think it is to a detriment. This team does need more forward thinking and some calculated risk taking. The status quo isn’t good enough. Becoming a 50 win team the way the Sixers seem to be doing it might make us the next Atlanta Hawks.

To say, however, that the Brand signing was not crippling to this franchise, I have to disagree. It was a poor decision. To your own admission, we need a big who is more nasty in the low post and at the rim on both ends of the floor. Brand, even at his prime, didn’t completely fit that bill. He was primarily a scorer from around the foul line, which this team didn’t really need, and all 6’8’’ and below the rim of him was aging and coming off a major injury at the same time as we doled out the money. Say what you want about Iguodala….he was overpaid a bit, but his contract wasn’t as bad as Brand’s. He’s still 27y/o, playing at less than a yearly cap hit than Brand, has good size and athleticism for his position, and wasn’t coming off major injuries.

These types of big men in the paint that we need aren’t easy to come by. So on that argument alone, drafting Vucevic at 16 wasn’t a bad selection. But that pick being our only major FO move, coupled with everything else our FO has not done, leaves a bad taste considering he looks like an upgraded version of Hawes. This team still needs a rim protector or two, and also 1 or 2 bigs that can finish in the paint in traffic. It needs backup point guard play. It needs more shooting and off the ball play in the starting lineup so Meeks can go to a role off the bench. And if anyone has a star player laying around, we might need one of those too.

These are all the same exact things this team needed going into last offseason. None of those needs have been addressed…..yet we are slowly but surely becoming a 50 win team. I’m not among those that feel the team has to tank or take a huge step backward to move forward. I’m also not one of the, “We must trade Iguodala in order to progress” people. But our FO is afraid of taking what might be any minor step backward in order to take a major one forward. It feels shortsighted. And while it’s good that Collins has some sway over personnel matters, my fear is that these FO guys are either too dumb or too scared to think for themselves.

by wannabgm on Jul 10, 2011 9:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs

The thing with the Atlanta Hawks is they have Joe Johnson, who sure enough isn’t quite that LeBron or Durant type and may not be able to carry a team through a series. But he’s the elite type of player that puts you in position to win. Josh Smith’s an athletic freak, but his lack of truly becoming a PF or a SF will hurt that team’s chances of ever being anything. Horford is a center, that is he protects the rim, rebounds the ball and is an agile skilled big man. He’s the only player that has an actual position on that team.

We don’t have a Johnson or a Horford, that is to say we don’t have a big that can protect the rim and give you 3rd-4th option offense. Nor do we have a shooting/slashing wing.

So even though the Hawks are mediocre by my standards(I remember watching the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, the Webber-Divac-Stojakovic Kings, the AI-Sixers and the 04 Pistons) the NBA has suffered a drought in talent. So the Hawks are a 50 win team in this NBA, whereas a few years ago a roster of this caliber may have been 40-45 wins at best.

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 10, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions

We don’t have a Johnson

It’s a shame we don’t have a 44% shooting swingman who takes 16+ shots per game.

The only thing Johnson has over Iguodala is 4% better 3-point shooting (though Johnson shot under 30% last season). He makes up for this by making 1 less FT per game than Iguodala. He has also take 4 more shots per game than Iguodala in his career.

But Johnson is a 20 ppg scorer. He must be good! If Iguodala was taking as many shots per game as Johnson does then he’d be a 20 ppg scorer too.

"Miami can’t beat Chicago, why? Because Chicago has everything Miami has and more.... I’ll grant you Wade/James stealing a game, or maybe two. But we’re seeing an OKC/CHI finals, and that’s a finals everyone will tune in for." - LeQuan Glover

by yosoysean on Jul 11, 2011 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions

That’s impossible because igoudala isnt a shooter/slasher type, he doesnt post up and is inept in the half court.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 11, 2011 6:35 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions

See: Eddie Jordan Sixers, instead of being sarcastic. EJ wanted Iguodala to be the Sixers main scoring option(sad). Iguodala shot 41% for the year and had a year exactly like that of then Houston forward Trevor Ariza.

Is it not a coincidence that once Ariza/Iguodala returned to their roles as being a part of a supporting cast and not THE player that both returned to the playoffs the following year?

Instead of being arrogant, it might be a good idea for some of you to watch the games and watch the players.

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 11, 2011 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions

I’m not sure where you’re getting this “41%” from. Any basketball website that records basic statistics will show you that Iguodala shot 44.3% for the season under Eddie Jordan. As I’ve stated many times before, you can’t just make up numbers for the sake of supporting your argument.

As for the playoff argument you tried to make, that’s just stupid. When you stop thinking about basketball teams being all about one individual player, then you might earn a little respect on this blog.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 11, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions

Iguodala also took more shots per game in the two years prior to Eddie Jordan than he did in the Eddie Jordan season. Once again LeQuan is talking out of his ass.

by yosoysean on Jul 13, 2011 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions

Once again LeQuan is talking out of his ass.

Call a locksmith!

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by Michael Levin on Jul 17, 2011 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions

While Horford is certainly more effective overall at C than anyone on our squad, isn’t he actually playing somewhat out of position as well? Most say he is a more ideal fit at PF.

I will agree, we don’t have a Horford or a Johnson and can use both. Although I’d prefer the Johnson of 2-3 years ago. But the Hawks don’t have a Jrue or an Iguodala, either. I think despite missing a couple ingredients that the Hawks have had the past few seasons, that we are well on our way to becoming a 50 win team that might get out of the 1st round. The bad thing is that looks like the Sixers’ ceiling right now.

by wannabgm on Jul 13, 2011 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Do you know Jrue’s ceiling? How about Evan Turner’s? Until we have a better idea of this, I’m not going to try to predict our team’s ceiling.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 13, 2011 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions

Unless they are MJ AND Hakeem the Dream, the roster the way it is currently constructed most definitely has a ceiling.

by wannabgm on Jul 14, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions

That’s a generic response. So unless they are two of the best players of all time the team is doomed to winning only 50 games in a season…

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 14, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions

No matter how much he works on his game, Hawes is still Hawes and Thad will always be undersized and Lou will likely peak early in his career due to his body and style of play. So yeah, this team has a ceiling. Tweaking it isn’t enough.

by wannabgm on Jul 15, 2011 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Saying the team has a ceiling and predicting the team’s ceiling at 50 wins are two different statements. One is a logical statement, and the other is not.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 15, 2011 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions

So, because you dissaggree with the premise that this team as it is currently constructed can at best hope to be a 50 win-ish team that isn’t really a legit contender…..that means I am illogical?
Doesn’t it just mean we dissagree?

by wannabgm on Jul 16, 2011 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions

….because while no one is correct in their analysis 100% of the time…including I’m guessing you as well, my logic when it comes to the Sixers tends to hold up over time more often than not.

by wannabgm on Jul 16, 2011 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Yes we disagree. I didnt mean it to come off sounding that way. The point im trying to make is that the future of this team is with jrue and turner and unless we know their ceiling ( and if they will reach that ceiling) i just dont see the point in saying the most this team can win is 50 games. Keep in mind the contracts coming off the books in a couple years. If jrue and turner develop well and the FO makes good moves we can be contenders in the coming years. Of course that may not happen, but declaring 50 wins at most is rather pessimistic IMO.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 16, 2011 10:15 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions

It’s actually optomistic. This TEAM winning 50 games? What, did Jodie Meeks become a slasher/mid-range shooter with handles?

That’s about the only way. short of acquiring a shot blocking center.

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 17, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions

You mean the god find? Since when was this converaation ever involving jodie meeks being the focal point of this roster?

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 17, 2011 9:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs

Didn’t they win games at something like a 47 win-ish pace after their horrible start where the team was clearly getting used to each other and the coach? There’s no way they play that poorly in any 16 game stretch at any point next season.

Aren’t they likely to improve due to their youth?

They are also a young team playing with something to prove. They won’t give up too many regular season wins due to a lack of effort. There are plenty of 50 win-ish teams that get knocked out of the 1st or 2nd round. I’m not saying the Sixers are a legit contender.

by wannabgm on Jul 18, 2011 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions

I’m obviously not quite as high on the ceilings of Jrue and ET as some, but I like both of them a lot and am glad we are going to be able to rebuild with them. My bigger concern is that if the Sixers financially commit to both Thad and Hawes, that we might not have a period of time where we have a lot of cap room or a high enough draft pick to get that big man or off the ball scorer we will probably need. But I’m really talking about the ceiling of this team over the next 2-4 years….not 5+ years down the line.

by wannabgm on Jul 18, 2011 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

They won’t contend at all if they don’t get a SF who is a shooter/slasher type with handles.

But in all seriousness, I hope the new owners retract the qualifying offer for Hawes. He’s not a rotational player on a championship team.
I also think the new CBA will play into the sixers favor in that other team’s will be less hesitant to offer Thad a ridiculous contract.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 18, 2011 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions

I agree with you on Hawes. On Thad, I dunno. There will be others bidding for his services. I think it depends on what the new CBA looks like. There’s a lot of teams who have been skimming down payroll leading up to this, so there are a lot of teams in a solid cap situation to make a play for Thad. So while the new CBA will hold down Thad’s number, more teams than usual are also in a position to make him an offer due to planning for the new CBA. I think Thad won’t get Iguodala money, but will be paid pretty well. And as nice of a weapon as Thad is, it’s hard to contend for a championship with him playing 35 minutes at PF. He’s small. He wins a ton of regular season games and will keep you in some playoff games in the early rounds. But it’s hard to win a championship with a PF that small getting most of the PF minutes. So committing to Thad for more than 3 or so years might not be such a great idea either.

by wannabgm on Jul 19, 2011 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions

I don’t suspect he’ll ever be a 35 mpg guy. That’s not how he’s most effective. There will be some new PF drafted or traded for or signed when Brand expires. Thad is what he is, a really nice 6th man, which has value in this league, but I’m not sure exactly what that value is until I see the new CBA and what people have to work with.

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, there will be no trade for Monta!

by dweebowitz on Jul 19, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Well, if we signed him after the 09-10 season, we could have taken Charlotte’s place in the three way trade and landed Bismack for Thad if we were so inclined. Thad can give a team a jolt in the W/L column and he’s likeable with both the fans, media, and the team. I think there will be suitors.

by wannabgm on Jul 19, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions

That could be. But if whichever suitor pays him as a guy who is expected to play a 35+ mpg starter, they will have overpaid him. I am a big Thad fan, and I hope he comes back, but he shouldn’t be a cap buster. He’s not that guy. Nice rotation player, but not that guy.

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, there will be no trade for Monta!

by dweebowitz on Jul 19, 2011 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed. I don’t think players in general will get contracts handed to them like in recent years past. I believe I said before I’d be happy with 7-8 mil per year for Thad. I believe that will be his value after the new CBA (of course all speculation). If teams want to overpay we have to let him go, but given his youth and role as an effective scorer off the bench, it would certainly be nice to have him as part of the young core on this team.
35 mpg? I don’t see that happening. That’s poor management if that happens. I think this team will/should start looking for a future starting PF in the next year or so.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jul 19, 2011 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions

I think Thad has some trade value. So I might sign him with an intention on moving him down the line. I wonder if the Sixers could have extended him to a more reasonable number after the 09-10 season. That’s what I would have tried to do if I was the Sixers FO back then.

by wannabgm on Jul 19, 2011 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions

ET and Jrue have handles. I’ll settle for shooter/slasher role player who can defend well at SF or even a SF by committee with some guys who can play off the ball.

by wannabgm on Jul 19, 2011 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Think a younger Mike Miller(from his Grizzlies days), how nice would that be on the Sixers roster right about now?

by LeQuan Glover on Jul 21, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions

For about 20 minutes/night, it would be splendid.

by wannabgm on Jul 21, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions

I love how you put Samuel Dalembert and Dwight Howard in the same sentence. I see your point and totally agree with the defensive centers and all, but that part was funny. Good post by the way.

Rauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuul sucks.

by 76ersloyal on Jul 10, 2011 8:21 PM PDT reply actions

What about Free Agency?

Especially now that we drafted Vucevic, young bigs I’d rather take a low risk flyer on than sign Hawes:
1) Alexis Ajinka (Despite his slim frame, he is probably no more of a liability defensively than Hawes but a more legitimate 3 point threat.)
2) Hamady Ndiaye…another one of those physical specimens who played soccer instead of basketball growing up. But he’s real long and active, with quick feet that can jump out on screens. Those traits alone would help our team even off the bench. If he develops the other aspects of his game, we win on the deal in a big way.
3) Jason Smith. He can’t rebound, he doesn’t play quite as long as Hawes in the middle. But overall he’s no worse a player at a discount.
4) Chuch Hayes. Despite being a munchkin at 6’6’’ and not terribly young (28), he’s a proven solid contributor in the post season and would improve our PF/C rotation.
5) Aaron Gray. Exactly nothing exciting about his current game or his upside. However, he’s big, no worse than Hawes, and will maybe be half the price.

If in the end, we can afford any 2 of these guys for the price of one Hawes, then I go after them.

by wannabgm on Jul 21, 2011 2:20 PM PDT reply actions

I’d rather have Hawes than any combination of two of those players.

by yosoysean on Jul 22, 2011 4:03 AM PDT up reply actions

Hawes was an overall liability most games after the 1st quarter. And he’s probably just keeping the starting C position warm for Vucevic.

Why not sign Aaron Gray instead to start temporarily for us at center at possibly less than 1/3 the cost?

Gray vs. Hawes
Same as rebounders.
Gray might be the better low post defender.
Gray is the better finisher at the rim and higher FG%
FT is negligible since neither are likely to play a great deal of important 4th quarter minutes.
Hawes is the smarter player, slightly better passer and catch and shoot guy. But it’s not like Gray is bad at passing and can’t hit the occasional wide open short jumper. He sets as effective a screen as Hawes, if not better.

If your belief is like mine, that Hawes is no more than a 10-15 minute center in this league on a good team. Than why pay him between 2-4 x’s more than Gray. Gray can rarely even make an appearance in the 2nd half and our W/L column would be no different. I know I was screaming at the TV to get Hawes out of the game quite often in the 3rd and 4th quarters.

by wannabgm on Jul 22, 2011 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions

There’s a reason Gray hasn’t played more than 13 mpg in his 4 season career. His defense is pretty horrible. Not only does he not block shots but he also fouls at an extremely high rate. He’s a big body and that’s it.

As much as Hawes is hated around here, he isn’t a terrible defender. Unfortunately he’s been a terrible shooter. Of course Gray and his career 3.6 ppg isn’t much of an improvement on that side of the court either.

There is nothing that can be done about the salary. Sixers already gave Hawes the qualifying offer. He cannot just be released and the Sixers can respend the money. His current salary is just a one season thing and will definitely be lower in future seasons, whether with the Sixers or another team.

by yosoysean on Jul 23, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions

I’ve noticed Gray gets caught out of position badly on occasion on rotations. But he can’t possibly defend his own man worse than Hawes. Can he? 15 minutes average is the most I would want to see Hawes or Gray play. I can live with the one year qualifying offer. I can’t live with a 3 or more year deal at 4 mil/season. That’s too risky for Hawes when a combination of guys could be pulled off the scrap heap on shorter deals for less and perform as well or better overall.

by wannabgm on Jul 24, 2011 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions