Since when did we love Larry Hughes?
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 2, 2011 1:08 PM PST
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PrintFlashback: 97 draft( I was actually only five years old at the time, so it's not like I actually watched the draft per say) coming off the Shawn Bradley epic failure and the A.I/Stackhouse thing butting heads, the Sixers were looking for a complimentary player to add to their core. Enter in Larry Hughes, passed on was Dirk Nowitski and Paul Pierce.
Eventually, after a few years Hughes was deemed ineffective. A solid defensive wing who could be a non option, but really his need for the rock in his hands conflicted with Allen Iverson. And we believed(or had to believe) that Hughes could do more. Generally accepted as a bust, much in the way of John Salmons. I believe we either traded him or signed elsewhere. Hughes, like Salmons would go on to have a breakout year followed by coming back down to earth. Leading people to say "SEE!" but in the end, their career numbers far outlasted that one incredible season.
So why do I bring up Larry Hughes and his generally ineffective time in Philadelphia and in general as a solid sparkplug wing? Everyone here knows the answer: We drafted the same guy virtually in 2004 and he's treated like he's "the next Scottie Pippen".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=iguodan01&y1=2011&p2=hughela01&y2=2006
Both were mediocre free throw shooters, both had non existent outside games and both were slightly above average in AST/T.O Ratio. Both frankly were roleplayers in the NBA. But I don't remember Hughes getting all the fanfare that our current #9 gets. Is it because it's cute to stick for the beaten dog when he's down?
Some will point out that Iguodala edges out Hughes in OWS and WS in general, to this I don't understand since their basic statistics are more or less the same, with the exception of Iggy shooting 5% better. I'll be honest and say I don't have too many memories of Hughes, but was he the athlete Iguodala is? Iguodala's fast break transition game, one of the things I'll always contend is the few things he does at an ELITE and transcendent level.
Let me be clear: I have nothing against our rebounding/defensive small forward. I have everything against his non-efficient, non-team oriented, mediocre overall isolation game that's on par with Louis Williams. I hate his shot selection(or lack of it), I hate his lack of a dribble, post-up game, etc. If not for the fast break, what would Iguodala be in the National Basketball Association?
To me Iguodala has never developed as a wing man, in the Pistons series, his two main problems were an inability to shoot over the top of the defense, or to create space. He still has troubles doing that, and as a catch and shoot guy, Derek notes that he's above average. But that's just it: He's above average.
That's not good enough to win, and it certainly doesn't justify what he brings to the table. We play Hawes, Lou, Thad 60 MPG combined on a daily basis. Yes, Iguodala's a top flight defender/rebounder. I'm not convinced we can't get by with a solid spark plug defensive forward we don't need the BEST defender.
Another user-created commentary provided by a Liberty Ballers reader.
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"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Dec 2, 2011 1:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Man, I thought the “So long, Stefanski” bait and switch title was something. But you’ve raised the bar now.
I actually clicked thinking, “What the hell is he talking about,” even though I should have known. I feel so ashamed. Both because I fell for it, and because it triggered some deep seeded emotions regarding the Larry Hughes era. I will now do the dance of shame.
Also,
1. Larry Hughes
2. Was born and raised in Missouri
3. Missouri borders Illinois
4. Iguodala was born and raised in Illinois.
5. Iguodala is garbage.
'Things are more like today than they have ever been before." Gerald R. Ford
LeQuan would make a great used car salesman.
by Naismithball on Dec 2, 2011 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Trying my hand
1. This is a fanpost
2. You’re reading my fanpost
3. You brush your teeth
4. People who don’t score 20 points per game brush their teeth.
5. Iguodala wears #9 jersey.
6. Iguodala and Larry Hughes are people.
7. I was born in 1992.
8. Iguodala is garbage.
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Dec 2, 2011 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
If you can’t legally drink you don’t know anything yet
Ron Brown has spoken :)
by JohnHasADHD on Dec 2, 2011 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Iguodala is LeQuan’s King Charles’ Head.
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, there will be no trade for Monta!
My professor was actually just talking about that term. Always nice to make educational connections here at Liberty Ballers!
by Naismithball on Dec 2, 2011 10:57 PM PST up reply actions
My son is home.
My son made a huge mess in the house.
I was forced to clean up for a couple of hours.
Then I took out the garbage.
Iguodala is garbage.
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, there will be no trade for Monta!
by dweebowitz on Dec 2, 2011 3:18 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
This may be my favorite.
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Dec 2, 2011 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
Would anyone give me a decent response? It’s fine if you hate me, it’s fine if you think I’m a nut. But I did what everyone wants me to do: I posted stats, the guys are more or less the same with the exception that Iguodala is viewed as a top-flight defender.
Is Iguodala’s top-flight defense really THAT valuable, that it compensates for his offensive flaws? Which I don’t think anyone here disagrees with. Look, I’ll gladly change my opinions if I can get a decent response that’ll allow me to justify looking at his absolute lack of a half-court game.
Right now, I see 14-17 PPG on above mediocre shooting percentages when you take away up-close buckets and the fast break. I see a third/fourth option that frankly doesn’t fit the guys on the roster. I’ll be glad to see this top-35 player,. NBA All-pro superstar everyone else sees.
If they can make me see it.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 2, 2011 5:19 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
If they can make me see it.
I could poop in a toilet bowl and stick your head in it, but I still don’t think you would claim to see it.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
by jefu on Dec 2, 2011 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Just to be clear, “it” is poop, right?
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Dec 2, 2011 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Would anyone give me a decent response? It’s fine if you hate me, it’s fine if you think I’m a nut. But I did what everyone wants me to do: I posted stats, the guys are more or less the same with the exception that Iguodala is viewed as a top-flight defender.
I’m not sure why I’m doing this, but:
If your goal was to use stats to say they’re the same player, you failed in an epic manner. Hughes has a career PER of 15.0 and a WS/48 of 0.071, compared to a 17.1 and 0.123 for Iguodala. He did all this while being incredibly less efficient (55.5% TS% for Iguodala to 48.8% for Hughes), having a lower assist rate (17.9 for Hughes, 20.5 for Iguodala) and being a far inferior defender.
Hughes, despite having a 12 year career, has posted a PER above 17 only twice. Iguodala, in 5 less seasons, has done so 5 times. Hughes has only had an above league average WS/48 once in his career. Iguodala has done so every year he’s been in the league.
And, finally, despite your inability to use stats (which I could understand), the ultimate reason people hate you is because you WON’T STOP MAKING EVERY POST ABOUT IGUODALA
Derek Bodner
SBN Philly || LibertyBallers || DraftExpress
@derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Dec 4, 2011 12:02 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
My turn! My turn!
1.I ate at a restaurant today
2. Larry Hughes was drafted #8
3. Trevor Ariza is 6’8"
4. Trevor Ariza = Larry Hughes = Travis Outlaw = Josh Smith = Andre Iguodala
5. Iguodala is garbage
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
What are you going to write about if/when Iggy is gone?
Follow @PhillyFollower
Writer at Iggles Nest
#FireAndyReid*
by PhiladelphiaEagles on Dec 2, 2011 7:54 PM PST reply actions
1.) Post stats
2.) Every single stat is in Iguodala’s favor, some by a large margin.
3.) Claim they’re the same player.
Your logic is astounding. Even when trying to use stats you screw everything up. “Edging out” in win shares? Iguodala averaged 3.7 more wins per season than Hughes. That’s basically the difference in wins between Thad and Hawes last season.
Eventually, after a few years Hughes was deemed ineffective. A solid defensive wing who could be a non option, but really his need for the rock in his hands conflicted with Allen Iverson. And we believed(or had to believe) that Hughes could do more. Generally accepted as a bust, much in the way of John Salmons. I believe we either traded him or signed elsewhere.
Why do you write about things you don’t know about as if you experienced them first hand? Hughes was only on the Sixers for one and a half seasons. He was thought to have still had potential when he was traded away as he was still only 21 years old. In a silly move they decided to trade a young man with some potential for an aging Toni Kukoc. I don’t know why you can’t be bothered to look up these things when they are right on the page that you linked.
And John Salmons wasn’t a “bust”. He was the 26th pick in the draft. The fact that he’s still in the NBA after being picked that late is pretty darn good.
That said I was rooting hard for Paul Pierce to be drafted by the Sixers and was disappointed when they drafted some kid I never heard of out of St. Louis.
by yosoysean on Dec 3, 2011 4:07 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
And yet, as we look at these statistics, I don’t see the “large margin”, except the field goal percentage.
Iguodala isn’t a good player in the NBA, if he were we’d win more.
It’s the same thing with the Eagles, we don’t have fundamentally talented players and we’re obviously not winning.
Talent coorlates to wins, and it isn’t neccessarily the talent that you THINK is talented.
Otherwise, we’d be more than 41-41 last year.
Oh, I see, your referring to the steals and the defensive rebounds. Again, pointing to Iguodala as an athlete.
Basketball is a floor game, this is not HOCKEY. Basketball might require the least amount of athleticism of any sport. That’s why a lean guard like Lou Williams can be generally successful, it’s why Kyle Korver’s and Steve Kerr’s find a role in this league. Does it help us signifcantly? Sure, yes.
But there’s two sides to the court, if Iguodala is gonna be a roleplayer in the NBA, that’s fine but not at 13.5 million per year this seaosn.
“But it’s not MAX money” And I’m supposed to be happy that it’s not? At best, he should be getting 6-to-8 million and to me that’s even inflationary. He may very well “fill the stat sheet”, but if we were to individualize the stats, how many players are averaging at least 15 PPG? I think all teams have at least one starter, if not multiple starters averaging 15 a game. Heck, Jason Terry’s a big time scorer off the bench. So let’s say, for all intents and purposes Iguodala is a mediocre scorer.
How many forwards are averaging around 6 boards a game? I’d have to say at least every legitimate big and wing man should at least be averaging six, lest his name be Spencer Hawes. The only thing amazing about his numbers, is his APG. Around six and very few forwards in the league can claim that. LeBron James and well, that’s about it from my mind. Granger/Durant are more scorers. Melo’s a post-up forward. Pierce, similarly. But to be fair, some of these guys average 2.5-3 APG at times, not Iggy’s six but it’s not that bad either.
Especially considering: That’s not their job. If your wing man is gonna be your point guard, then make your PG your offensive option. That’s right, more shots for Jrue Holiday this season. Since that’s Iggy, at his “most effective”. But I want Jrue to be our playmaker.
I want Iguodala out of a Sixers uniform, people called Chris Singleton a lesser Iguodala, if a mid-round pick is a “lesser Iguodala”, then what the hell is the current one? Certainly not a top-30 NBA player.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 3, 2011 6:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
. Basketball might require the least amount of athleticism of any sport.
Huh what? I mean that’s the exact opposite of what is true
by JohnHasADHD on Dec 3, 2011 8:38 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
it’s an ongoing debate (at least in my mind) whether or not this guy is just a troll who is trying to pull one on other readers or he really is this dumb.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
I don’t think he’s a troll. Listen to WIP. A lot of people feel the same way.
by The Pied Piper on Dec 3, 2011 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
So what does that tell you about a lot of people?
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
What does it tell you about a minority? The majority of Philadelphia has had it to hell with a delusional minority and the equally delusional front office. The best teams have the most two-way players and/or the most depth and the Sixers have neither of those things.
If you think Jason Campbell(Andre Iguodala) is gonna lead us to a title, fine. Run the franchise into the ground. Campbell, like Iggy has a few good games that gets you excited but overall, he’s mediocre. He “doesn’t hurt you”, well he doesn’t help you either and I don’t recall too many teams that play alot of players that “can’t hurt you”.
There’s a place for Iguodala, that place isn’t Philadelphia. Jrue-Turner aren’t there as a duo yet, we don’t have anything resembling a core in place. IT’S TIME.
Luckily, there are no more six year deals but then maybe that’s not luck. Maybe to the delusional minority and it’s blessed front office, signing Iggy to a 4-Year contract is just what your doctor ordered.
As for the majority of Philadelphia, the so-called “retards”? We’re done. The 2001 squad ultimately had not much in the way of a future, but at least there was a system in place. Note to New Ownership: You can make the Wachovia Center the most exciting place in the world but it doesn’t matter, we, the fans who actually watched this team when it won and actually understood the reasons why are not going to watch this crappy product. Nor are we gonna pretend that the improvement of TWO of our 11 players is gonna make a big difference.
At the end of the day you need talent, depth and a plan. You’ve little talent, absolutely no depth and of course no plan. So if you think a Jason Campbell is the answer, or that Vince Young(Spencer Hawes/Vuvecic) can just fill in as a starter. We’re gonna give you the same amount of effort.
We’re done, I’m done.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 4, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
The majority of Philadelphia has had it to hell with a delusional minority and the equally delusional front office.
Because they listen to WIP who hires shock jock hosts to get ratings and fire people up.
One could argue WIP hires the ‘shock jocks’ that will appeal to the majority of its listeners. WIP doesn’t create the audience, they just appeal to it.
The average sports fan, in general, just doesn’t bother getting educated about what they’re talking about
Especially the children
They do feed on it, but at the same time they also help encourage it. I don’t blame them for feeding on it because in the end they are a business and need to make money, it just gets tiring.
So stop listening :)
I was disappointed that when a second sports radio station got added it turned out to be just as bad as WIP, i had hopes it would have gone the other way.
I just use it
as a barometer of whether someone is worth reading :) It’s a handy tool
If you think Jason Campbell(Andre Iguodala) is gonna lead us to a title, fine.
If you think that people here believe that he will lead us to a title, you are mistaken. People just get sick of your drivel about how much he sucks, when you fail to realize how important of a player he is. People here realize that he is a key component to this team, especially on D, but I do not think any of us believe he would throw the team on his back and win a title.
1. I woke up contemplating about my life.
2. I realize I did zero things right yesterday.
3. Larry Hughes’ last # is 0.
4. Homeless dudes have 0 houses with an infrastructure.
5. They pick up garbage.
6. Iguodala is garbage.
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Dec 3, 2011 8:44 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
1. Why do people even read his posts anymore?
2. People work in a post office.
3. Basketball players post up.
4. Iguodala can’t post up.
5. Iguodala is garbage.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
by jefu on Dec 3, 2011 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
IGUODALA ISN’T NICE
IGUODALA IS GARBAGE
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Dec 3, 2011 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
LeQuan, your opinion ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and dolphin gettin’ it on.
Honestly though, you’ve yet to post anything worth reading. Your rants are always poor grammatically, show how clueless you are about the NBA, and touch on the SAME subject everytime. (One which no one agrees with you about, BTW.)
So why do you keep posting this stuff?
For who? For what?
"I make love to pressure." - Stephen Jackson
"My passion is more passionate than ever." - Greg Paulus
LOL
There really is no sense in responding to these ridiculous Iguodala rants anymore. That is all. Time to get drunk. I’ll have a beer for you Lequan and hope that someday you might get it.
LeQuan, I have a few questions.
Say you’re right about everything and Iguodala really is on the same level as Trevor Ariza.
What do you do with him? If Iguodala does not fit with the Sixers, is there an NBA team that he DOES fit with, or does he just suck in general? Who do you suggest would be a better option for the Sixers right now at the three? Should the Sixers trade him? Is Monta Ellis better than him? Are half-court points more valuable than fast-break points, making Iguodala a worthless player (as you claim)?
Also, would you trade Iguodala for Ariza? If your answer is anything but no, you should have your LibertyBallers privileges revoked.
Love the Sixers, love the Cavs. Don't sympathize, we'll win a championship someday. Someday...
I made my position clear: We trade Iguodala, and we rebuild. Iguodala fits on a team where there’s legitimate scoring options and where he’s a roleplayer. Where he, is in effect the third-to-fifth best player on the team. That means a team like the Mavericks, Spurs, Lakers, etc. He’d be a great Magic! No really, Iguodala would make the Magic an upper echelon team again, if only he could shoot he’d fit the scheme and team needs like a glove there.
I’ve opposed Monta Ellis from the very beginning,what we need are wings that can shoot and create plays. Monta Ellis is neither a shooter, or much in the way of a slasher. He’s a mini Allen Iverson ballhog that while he draws fouls, it’s not in the rhythm of the offense. I think we all agree here: Thanks, but no thanks.
To get an idea of the kind of wing I want going forward, I MADLY wanted Klay Thompson in the draft last year. Seth Curry is a guy I wanna look out for(though he’s a tweener and not a true wing and hence, would be another Jodie Meeks.)
A trade of Iguodala/Ariza would make everyone happy, you get your defensive swing man and we get a guy paid roughly what he’s really worth. The downside is that Ariza isn’t Iguodala athletically, we’re not gonna get the transition buckets so in a weird way offensively we’d be worse.
But both have their limitations and I prefer skill players. Honestly, Doug Christie was a better wing man.
Here too, people are gonna complain “He played more minutes and had a much higher wins shares”. That’s nice, only Iguodala through 7 years hasn’t won quite as much as Christie in 7 years.
It’s called inflation, Iguodala’s wins shares are mostly due to as you say “This team overall is mediocre”, including HIM. Christie is a better shooter, solid on both the rebounds and the assists and is about the same level of a defender.
But even if Christie wasn’t an Iguodala-level defender, let’s say he were average. I’d STILL take Christie because his defense didn’t expose me, and his shooting both from the perimeter and the FT line actually helps me win games.
There’s more to this game then defense, defense alone doesn’t make Iguodala an all-pro.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 3, 2011 7:10 PM PST up reply actions
No one is saying that Iguodala is an “all pro”, but his combination of defense, passing, rebounding, and scoring make him a top 35 player in this league. To single him out and say that he is the reason why we are a .500 team is idiotic.
by The Pied Piper on Dec 3, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
See, we have two other two-dimensional players on the team: Jrue Holiday and Elton Brand, you had Meeks slid into the lineup last year. Frankly, if Iguodala were a half-court wing in any sense of the word it could be a legitimate core going forward.
Unfortunately, he isn’t. I think he averages 6-to-8 PPG on the fast break(that is to say whether it’s from a steal, rebound, outlet pass, etc.) His 17 PPG the majority of it doesn’t come from the half-court.
He’s an offensive liability, thereby in my mind negating his defense. Iguodala’s shortcomings in the half-court hold this team back big time and honestly it’d hold any other team back too. Unless he’s a non option.
But Iguodala is being paid twice that of Trevor Ariza, we don’t have salary flexibility. We can’t make Iguodala a slot starter or a bench player like he’d optimally be.
Iguodala’s a guy I can’t isolate, post up or ask to drive past a defender. How do you expect me(this team) to win with that? If we get past .500, Doug Collins would have answered a question I’ve deemed damn near impossible to solve.
As of now, we NEED Evan Turner from Ohio State, if we’re gonna have any chance of being anything than a playoff fooder for the next three years.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 3, 2011 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
translation:
Evan Turner > Andre Iguodala
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
Players LeQuan likes on the Sixers:
Jrue Holiday
Evan Turner
Thaddeus Young
Basically, once you’re off of your rookie contract, you suck.
Love the Sixers, love the Cavs. Don't sympathize, we'll win a championship someday. Someday...
Unfortunately, Iguodala didn’t improve one ioatta from the 2004 season, but hey don’t mind me, between him and Elton Brand we’ve got the two best players in basketball!
I like Holiday, Turner and Young because they have the potential to be two-way basketball players, which Iguodala is not.
Lose Young, you lose alot of our “half-court scoring”, lose Holiday and you lost the rest of it.
Holiday/Young is the reason we went 41-41 last year and not another lottery season.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 4, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
Iguodala didn’t improve one ioatta from the 2004 season
Not true. Iguodala averaged his best ppg in 07-08 where he averaged 19.9 ppg. His assists per game have also steadily increased over that time.
Hey – can’t agree or disagree until someone tells me what an ioatta is?
Is that the dude from good fellas but he lost his ‘ell’?
Holiday/Young is the reason we went 41-41 last year and not another lottery season.
And everyone else on the team. Without the improved D play, the 76ers would have probably been sub .500. Guess who is one of the best defenders in the league?
Saying Doug Christie is better than Iguodala then adding a chart that shows how all of Iguodala’s stats are better is laughable.
There’s more to this game then defense, defense alone doesn’t make Iguodala an all-pro.
There’s also more to this game than scoring 25 PPG.
He will never understand this.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
If Iguodala were a legitimate “true” 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG.
Iguodala should be a non-option, his PPG wouldn’t decline. In fact, his percentages would go up!(I cite his Rook/Sopho years). By Comparison, Thad Young a player that most have already given up on has proven that he’s a legit half-court option in the NBA. He may be our best by far. Thad Young, is most probably a 3rd option in the league. He is THE piece next to Jrue-Turner going forward.
Well, if I were a GM which frankly I’m not and it’s quite sad. If we give up a young, potential true hybrid forward for basically nothing. Then I’m just gonna throw my arms up and never be a Sixers fan again. Because it’d take that long for my interest to come back when the Sixers are finally good again.
by LeQuan Glover on Dec 4, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG.
Best comment ever.
I couldn’t resist. I had to make it my new signature.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
I'm considering my new signature
Options are
1. The book was better
2. If Time is money, shouldn’t ATM’s be time machines?
3. Bazinga
4. My real name is Stormageddon
Any combination of three and four should do the trick.
"If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG." - LeQuan Glover
As you say
so it shall be
My true name is Stormageddon Bazinga Jones
If Iguodala were a legitimate "true" 17 PPG scorer, we’d be a better team. When at least 8 of those points come off the fast break, his true offensive production is a reality: 8-11 PPG.
WHAT? If he scores 17 ppg, he scores 17 ppg.
Dude, don’t you watch the games, those are fake points
He pads his points
by JohnHasADHD on Dec 4, 2011 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
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