The Sixers Small Forward thread.

by RickoT on Sep 30, 2010 3:16 PM PDT

This post is simply to discuss the players involved and the competition for minutes. It is my contention that the strength of the team is with the four guards, and Thad Young and that as time goes on Turner's emergence will come at the expense of the small forwards.

The players excluding Iguodala are: Thad Young, Jason Kapono, Andres Nocioni and Darius Songalia. Collins had a quote where he justified playing Andre at the two to make time for Young and Nocioni to be on the floor. But when I looked at the numbers for Nocioni and Songalia and Kapnono, I realized I was looking at 3 slow, white guys!

Songalia's numbers are the best out of all of them, but even with last year's disappointing figures, it's clear Young is in a class by himself. So watch how and where Collins uses Turner and whether or not he is on the floor with Andre and Jrue at the same time. This is really a two headed team, now. We have a fast group with Holiday, Iguodala, Young, Speights and Hawes, and a slow group with Williams and Turner teaming up with Songalia, Brand and a Center. This gives Collins the ability to put a lot of different looks on the floor and hopefully keep teams off-balance.

Another user-created commentary provided by a Liberty Ballers reader.

Tweet Comment 22 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

I think it helps to look at all of the minutes, since players play multiple positions.

To start the year something along the lines of:

Jrue: 35 (All PG)
Iguodala: 35 (SG/SF)
Thad: 30 (mostly SF)
Brand: 28 (PF)
Hawes: 26 ©
-—————-
Turner: 20 (PG and increasing SG over the year)
Lou: 25 (“scoring guard”/assassin)
Speights: 25 (PF/C)
Noci: 16
========
240 total minutes

Later in the year Turner will rise to 30-35 minutes. Speights/Brand/Hawes minutes will be in flux.

The other guys (Meeks/Kapono/Brackens/Battie/Songalia) will get scraps. Minutes will open up for them based on injuries or situationally.

by tk76 on Sep 30, 2010 6:24 PM PDT reply actions

Chapu should get 25. He wasn’t effective playing fewer minutes last year with the Kings. When he played more than 25 in a game they were like 11-9 or something.

Teams without Chapu lost 1173 games during the 2009-'10 season.

by chapuforyou on Oct 1, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions

for some odd reason I decided to look it up:

King’s Record when Nocioini played 25+ minutes in 2009-2010:

8 Wins
16 Losses

"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George

LibertyBallers // @tsteidel

by Tanner Steidel on Oct 1, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions

Sorry, that estimate was for the first two-thirds of the season.

I forgot he played more minutes down the stretch. And he actually shot pretty well from three then (.520 in Feb, .400 in March, and .444 in April

Teams without Chapu lost 1173 games during the 2009-'10 season.

by chapuforyou on Oct 1, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions

some ammo for ya though – the kings had a better overall winning percentage when he played 25+ minutes than when he didn’t (by about 3 percentage points)

"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George

LibertyBallers // @tsteidel

by Tanner Steidel on Oct 1, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

My guess

PG: Holliday (32), Lou Williams (16)
SG: Andre Iguodala (24), Turner (16), Lou Williams (8)
SF: Thaddeus Young (24), Andre Iguodala (12), Andres Nocioni (8), Kapono (4)
PF: Brand (30), Brackins (6), Songalia (4), Young (4), Speights (4)
C: Speights (24), Hawes (24)

by Shady is an Eagle! on Sep 30, 2010 9:46 PM PDT reply actions

It would be cool...

…if they could find some way to get Meeks some actual minutes. He might be a passable player if he got some burn.

Iguodala playing SG pretty much buries Meeks, though. Honestly, I would have rather put Iguodala at SF and buried Kapono. Nocioni would split the 10-12 minutes I would give him between the 3 & stretch 4 (since he is reputed to have an outside shot).

I might allocate minutes a little sumtin’ like this….

PG: Holiday (34) Williams (8) Turner (6)
SG: Turner (16) Williams (16) Meeks (12) Iguodala (4)
SF: Iguodala (32) Young (12) Nocioni (4)
PF: Brand (24) Young (12) Speights (6) Nocioni (6)
C: Speights (24) Hawes (24)

Brackins needs a year in the D-League. Kapono and Songaila shouldn’t be in the plan.

Here’s my logic:
- Lou Williams is a SG who can play PG in certain situations. An Iverson-lite “lead guard” whose primary ability is scoring. He shouldn’t be spending the majority of his time as the primary distributor. It’s better if he has Jrue to set him up to score.
- Meeks might possibly be a player (based on an admittedly small sample size). He needs to play so they can find out. Putting Turner on the ball for a short time every game takes advantage of his full skill set. Williams needs to be getting his primary minutes at SG.
- Iguodala should primarily be playing SF. It’s his best position, he is the best player, he should be playing his best position.
- Young can do his scoring-only combo forward thing. Unless he suddenly learns to play defense and rebound, which is unlikely.
- Brand needs to have his minutes limited until he shows he can play effectively for longer. The less he plays per game, the more likely the minutes he does play will be effective. If he proves he can play more, take his extra minutes out of Speights’ PF minutes, and let Speights play more at C, and then Nocioni’s (sorry, NoceOne, it’s not that I hate on your boy, it’s that I don’t think he’s a future piece here, and this year has to be about the future).
- I think they need to see if either Speezy or Hawes can play C in the NBA. Once one of them looks significantly better, adjust the minutes so the better player plays more. Brand should never be allowed to play C.

by dweebowitz on Oct 1, 2010 4:52 PM PDT reply actions

No problem, I thought your assessment was pretty fair and valid.

There can only be one Noce!

by NoceOne on Oct 3, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Probably the biggest favor they can do for everyone, especially him, is trade him to a contender who can use a solid bench guy for depth. He would end up with more minutes and probably be more appreciated for what he brings to the table. Here, he’s mostly viewed as being in the way of developing the young guys, which is what this team needs to be focused on.

by dweebowitz on Oct 4, 2010 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Very familiar sentiment too.

That’s exactly the sentiment in Sacramento too.

There can only be one Noce!

by NoceOne on Oct 4, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions

i see us trading a few small forwards to get a center or a pick

by killacaravagio on Oct 1, 2010 7:35 PM PDT reply actions

I concur. The team still needs a center.

I don’t think you guys are paying attention to Collins thinking. Iguodala is a two so he has a place in the line-up for Thad or Noce or Songalia. He needs some toughness and rebounding out of that position, and wants to use the white boys in that role.

Brand is too slow to play most 3’s, and a little too small to handle all the 4’s. But he is a tough cover and can score a lot of points, he is a cause for optimism, as Doug believes in him, whereas Jordan didn’t. If he can add toughness and rebounding as well as scoring, that will really help the team.

Speights and Hawes – too slight to handle the bigger Centers, but they do have potential and Collins has no choice but to try and get as much out of them as possible. One of them may be a more effective 4 than Brand.

Watch out for Speights who by default will become featured in the offense. Few of you seem to understand that he will become a focal point, simply because he is a scoring machine. The other players will juke and jive but it’s all about creating space for a good open shot.

by RickoT on Oct 2, 2010 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions

I like how often you imply that you know more than other people on this site.

by yosoysean on Oct 2, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I’m just going by what Collins said. I can’t help it if other people don’t read or get the same meaning out of it.

Collins said he wants Iguodala as a 2, yet I see a number of posters saying that this will change. Based on Collins logic I don’t see that happening, until Turner demonstrates that the team is as good with he and Andre on the floor as it is with Thad and Andre or Noce and Andre.

Collins also said that he would have his bigs outside to open the lane and create opportunities for Iguodala and Young to post up and get inside shots.

All of this makes sense to me as what a good coach would think. I can’t help that Collins is coming to the same conclusions that I am. Basketball is Basketball.

The one thing I can’t figure out is why Larry Brown is letting Eddie Jordan come to his practices. Larry is a very nice man, and has a family of coaches and players that he networks with, but where does he draw the line? If you love the game of basketball, then you don’t want Eddie anywhere near the game. I didn’t understand any of Eddie’s decisions and I think he is clueless and beyond redemption. He also acted like a jerk with the press and the players.

by RickoT on Oct 3, 2010 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions

watch the inteveiw again and read what he said… when Collins say right now and he emphasizes it that mean literally today. they havent played a game agains anyone yet and when they do what ever problems with the line we have will be exposed.

by killacaravagio on Oct 3, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions

we will see where who plays by the end of preseason… you seem to over look the fact that collins kept using the phrase “right now” meaning as of this moment. as of right now thads a 3 as of this moment dre is the starting 2 guard. by the end of preseason thad may be back at the 4 and any way with the roster we have no one is playing their position in a traditional manner. for al we know collins will have the 3 in the post offensively and the 4 outside.

by killacaravagio on Oct 2, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Right now, Turner is very far away and is to me, a versatile spark plug. That means we need a starting 2 guard and NO, it’s not Iguodala. That job belongs to Jodie Meeks.

We started/gave major minutes to Meeks and Kapono along with Jrue Holiday and we started winning. Why doesn’t anyone have a door bell rang?Offensively, if the team is to be cohesive we need at least two perimeter players on the court.

Holiday/Meeks/Iguodala/Brand/Hawes.

by LeQuan Glover on Oct 4, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions

I think Holiday, Iguodala, Young, Brand and Hawes is a better line-up. That’s a real weak front line and we need all the rebounding help we can get.

I actually think the best line-up would be Holiday, Iguodala, Young, Speights and Hawes, but this would leave the bench short of bigs.

We’ll find out more as the preseason games begin. Doug will use this time to figure out how to allocate minutes and what he can get away with, without hurting the team. A lot of what he can do will be dictated by the players on the other team.

Collins didn’t decider to put Thad at the 3 in a vacuum. He knows very well what Thad’s strengths and weaknesses are. If you recall before training camp, Collins was thinking about Thad as a 4. When he saw them play, he decided Thad was a 3.

Collins will use anyone who can help him win, so if he sees that Meeks can play, he will. But if you think Meeks can outplay Iguodala at the 2, you’re nuts.

by RickoT on Oct 4, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

our bigs are more perimeter oriented so we dont need more shooters on the court hawes, brand, spegights, and brakins are jump shooter who will spread the floor

by killacaravagio on Oct 4, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Sounds good, but it only works if they can shoot a high-enough percentage.

by RickoT on Oct 6, 2010 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions

well it seems like its what they are going to try any way

by killacaravagio on Oct 6, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions

Well, here we are 2 weeks later and suprise, surprise the starting Small Forward is Jason Kapono!

Whether he holds onto the job remains to be seen, but he did demonstrate a skill that no-one else playing the three seems too: the ability to hit an outside shot. For a team like the Sixers that has traditionally struggled in the half-court, the ability to shoot from outside and also bring your Center out to the foul line puts the other teams defenders one on one with Iguodala, Holiday and Brand.

One might argue that if only Iguodala or Holiday were better outside shooters, we wouldn’t need as much from the Small Forward, but the situation is what it is and Kapono fits better because he makes them work on offense.

I wonder when or if we’ll see more of Darius Songalia.

by RickoT on Oct 26, 2010 3:16 PM PDT reply actions