Andre Iguodala vs. Evan Turner: A Query
Finally, it's Monday! Everybody loves Mondays! And aside from an excuse to use the word "query" in a title, this post in an indicator of things to come for the offseason here at Liberty Ballers. We're almost a month removed the Draft and with three merciless months away from actual basketball, expect to see a lot of hypotheticals, "almost" stories, and goofiness as the crew here scrapes together material for your reading pleasure so you don't forget about us. Today's waste of time is not about the possible inability of Andre and Evan to co-exist; rather, the prospective of trading one of them mid-season.
Trading Andre Iguodala
Jordan wrote this many months ago in preparation for your being dealt at the trade deadline, but didn't publish it until the deadline passed. If another tribute post is necessary this season, this Sixers team would be significantly below the .500 mark closing in on the All-Star Break, and the front office would be calling it a day on the season. While the blame for our potential failure could be placed on our less-than-able front court, Andre has the most value on the market between he and Elton Brand, so his contract (looking better by the day) would be the one to go.
What are the benefits of trading Andre? We could load up on expirings to clear cap space in preparation for a big free agent splash next summer. Carmelo Anthony tops my list of small forward replacements for Iguodala if he were to get dealt, because I think he and Turner would compliment each other well. While speculation is that Melo wants to go to New York, I wouldn't say Philly is out of the question for the Syracuse alum. At least for the rest of this season, the onus would be placed on Jrue Holiday and Turner to run the show -- hopes are they'd respond in a big way in the name of accelerated development.
If Evan and Andre really don't play well together this season (which I don't think will be the case), trading 'Dre makes more economic sense. We'd shred the contract, have Turner on the cheap for the next few years, and fill the gap with Thaddeus Young's final half-year of his contract. But does it make the ever-present Ed Stefanski basketball sense?
More after the jump.
Trading Evan TurnerLet's try to forget the Orlando Summer League and DeMarcus Cousins' impressive work in Vegas for a second, and say that Turner is having a respectable rookie season. Maybe he's garnering a few Rookie of the Year (ROWENGARTNER!) votes, but not tearing up the competition -- he's solid. But Andre has put in another season of great defense, open court playmaking, and has somehow improved his three-point shot/shot selection. The market for Evan Turner and his rookie salary is much bigger than Iguodala's. We could probably pull a mediocre first half from Wesley Johnson and a protected first rounder from Minnesota and the Wrath of Kahn in exchange for Turner. Or any number of other deals out there for good but not spectacular young talent and a pick.
Another scenario is a team is willing to take on Elton Brand's contract with Turner's. Having not been all that impressed with Turner's upside, do you swap them both for expirings and a late first? This way, the front office would theoretically be able to sculpt the team in a more efficient way, with maneuverable cap room and a few holes to fill. Unfortunately it would mean giving up on a high-IQ shooting guard with tremendous work ethic and a proven track record for cap relief and not much else.
This doesn't seem to make much basketball sense either, but it would seem trading your best player or number two draft pick never would in the short term. Consider both the market value of both players as well as the future of this franchise with Evan or Andre in it. I, for one, am leaning towards trading Andre for a young big and a pick, then wait until Brand expires for us to contend. But more on that later, kids :)
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I think I’m pretty well on record on what I think needs to happen. Turner won’t bring a decent return, so unless he’s packaged with Brand, It has to be Iguodala. Turner has next to no value on his own.
How do you figure Turner has no value on his own?
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 19, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Rookie contract. No track record. Sixers have no cap space to absorb larger contracts.
Nothing to do with his ability as a player. But there’s no value in trading someone on a rookie contract without packaging him with a larger contract. Especially someone on a rookie contract who hasn’t played yet. You’d basically be swapping your unproven rookie for their unproven rookie. Rather like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
More stuff has to happen to the roster than just getting a different rookie, rather than the one they already have.
But if it’s a question of “fit,” then what say you to a Wesley Johnson and future first from Minnesota if they’d rather go Beasley at the 3 with Turner at 2?
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 19, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure. I just don’t think it’s enough, in terms of shaking things up. If there’s to be a trade, my preference would be for that trade to address some of the rather serious roster and related issues (“no NBA-caliber frontcourt players”, for example, or “no cap space til 2013”), rather than tweak some parts for “fit”. They aren’t far enough along in building a talent base to make that kind of move.
This is why I think Iguodala needs to be the trade, if a trade there shall be. He is the only high-value player currently on the roster (high-value being defined for purposes of this discussion as having both sufficient NBA-level talent to make him desirable for other teams to part with something useful and a large enough contract to bring back something significant), and the team needs an overhaul, not an adjustment. Any overhaul is going to have to, unfortunately, start with Iguodala.
If these are the only two options, I’m not sure how it makes any rational sense to trade Evan Turner. The sixers are a malformed roster that is numerous pieces away from even winning a first round playoff series, let alone being relevant in the discussion of Eastern Conference teams. They have one really solid young piece in Jrue Holiday and one really solid veteran piece in Andre Iguodala. If turner does play well, he fits into the young piece mold, and you keep him and just commit to rebuilding.
Trading Evan Turner (and whatever else you need to trade him with to get salaries to fit to get anyone of significance) reeks of a desperation one player away Billy King move.
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 19, 2010 9:32 AM PDT reply actions
What if it’s for another young guy of comparable upside who doesn’t fit on his current team?
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 19, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
So what? THen you’re just running in place. One young guy with upside for another guy with upside does not put the sixers in a better position to contend.
If you’re trading Evan Turner it’s because you have the pieces now to contend and you package him to improve your immediate future (next 2-3 years of contention). So adding a young player with upside for another young player with upside is the equivalent of running place to me.
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 19, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Don’t you think it’s a little early to be counting Jrue as a core player. If the last three seasons have taught us anything, it’s should be, not to annoint a young player after thier rookie season. Both Young and Speights had positive rookie seasons, and fans (including myself) were all counting on them to continue growing as players and develop into star players. Which clearly hasn’t happened. Don’t get me wrong, I want Jrue to be the next coming Gary Payton.
Hell, there’s still a lot of Sixer fans out there who think Young is a monster and is being held back by the presence of Iguodala on the squad.
Neither
I think we are best off not giving Ed any cap room to give stupid contracts to Thad, Spencer or even our favorite Bill Green. Let’s give this team a year to develop a team under our new coach.
Mr Stefanski doesn’t need capp room to give contracts to Thad Spencer or Willie Green. If Comcast is persuaded that they’re worth it he can give them whatever he wants. And if he does clear cap room, trading Iguodala, he won’t clear enough to over pay all three.
The current CBA (also) won’t be relevant to the concepts of cap room and free agency most likely so it’s harder than usual to project any kind of free agency without first knowing what the new CBA looks like.
Besides, the 2011/2012 season most likely won’t happen.
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 19, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Honestly, I don’t much care about free agency right now, regardless of the structure of the new CBA (whenever that happens). I don’t want free agents to sign. I want picks. Lots and lots of picks, and young guys with upside on cheap rookie contracts.
Yes, I know this means they suck for a couple of years. I don’t care. I want them to build a team. Another pricey free agent with a long-term contract (I can only surmise that the new CBA will have a harder cap to have to manage, if anything) is only going to get in the way of the necessary overhaul.
I’m more interested in trading for cap space, when I refer to it, to shed toxic players, like Lou Williams or Nocioni. These players have little to no relevance to the Sixers future (I hope), and I am only interested in their carrying players who will matter in 2-3 years. Minutes and dollars need to be focused on those players who are part of the strategy. If I can get an $8M expiring contract for Willie Green and Lou Williams, I take it. If I can get an expiring $14M contract for Lou Williams and Andres Nocioni (even though NoceOne seems like a nice enough guy) I take it. You get the idea.
I don’t sign extensions for Hawes or Jason Smith or probably Speights or Thad, unless the light bulb seriously goes on for them. I do whatever I can to move Nocioni and Lou. It’s not about signing expensive free agents. It’s about clearing out the roster. Any trade has to be about replenishing the talent base for the future. What move is going to get them the maximum number of talented young players?
Then there’s the (probable) lockout. Which would be wonderful if it moves all the evil contracts a year ahead without making me have to watch Brand’s riveting below the rim game for a year.
Hello. Seems like both scenarios end up with the Sixers getting a former Syracuse player…
I don’t see either being traded. Turner needs to learn how to play off the ball and Iggy needs to accept to play off the ball with Jrue taking over the reigns. Hopefully these can happen and the Sixers have a nice little stew going.
If one has to be traded, its gotta be Iggy because of the contract. Hes the type of player that could be added to a contender now and put them over the top.
Trade&Depth
though i would like to see if they could co-exist together, because of the hope of excellent,solid defense from both,along with Holiday more nights than not, if they couldnt, would anyone give free agent Rashad McCants a shot on this team? Granted, trading iggy would bring some cap relief in the form of expiring contracts…but honestly, we wouldnt really get anybody back of any significance. i think coach collins would be able to get the most out of this talented, all be it alloof player. even if a trade didnt go down and Evans and Iggy are both still here, i would still rather have this cheap talented player than “me only” lou will, mo"sorry,no defense"spieghts,jay"im just here"smith,or willie"i dont belong in the NBA" green.
You need to make Philly attractive for future free agents!
I have debated trading Andre since the middle of last season. Looking what transpired in the offseason thus far, cap room gets you absolutely nothing! You better was a good team or quality free agents will not come, just ask the NJ Nets. In this day in age with the current system in place, salaries are fixed in which top stars have maximum contracts they can receive. With money out of the equation, a winning team is paramount. If you trade Andre you better get a player of equal or better current value or no free agent will come to Philly when the cap situation clears up in a few seasons. Forget about draft picks, developmental players, but players who can help the team win basketball games right now. Such a trade for Andre would be Josh Smith, Hortford, Noah, Grainger, etc. If you cannot get one of these players for Andre, keep him! I do not see why Andre & Turner can co-exist.
THe sixers can’t control the nightlife or the tax situation or the weather
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 19, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I can control the weather
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 19, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
The Answer
never forgive the organization for not gettin A.I. any help that was our best shot in a while, i hope Jrue and Evan bring back some of the excitement, i remember loving philly basketball now we’re ashamed by it, all that eagle criticism should be used on the sixers
This picture caption was back up to the comedy level I would expect from you, Michael Levin. Well done.
Let the Jruth be told.
Implying my comedy level has been down of late? Pump the breaks mousey, I have cyber-nunchucks and I’m not afraid to use them.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 20, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Man, just proving the point aren’t you?
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 21, 2010 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Well the caption before this one (noce) was more of a laugh-to-myself-quietly-just-to-acknowledge-it kinda thing, but this one is comedy gold.
Let the Jruth be told.
by guitarmouse35 on Jul 21, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
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