Will Andres Nocioni Get Playing Time?
by Michael Levin on Jul 16, 2010 6:00 AM PDT
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PrintI'm more intrigued now about Noce than I was when first hearing about the deal. Spencer Hawes was the bigger target in the deal, and he still may be, but I think there's an assumption going around that Nocioni will be cementing his buns on the bench. I've always casually paid attention to him because he seemed to be another one of those international players that would stick it to the Sixers every time out, according to my unreliable eye test. It seemed inevitable that, like Donyell Marshall and Toni Kukoc, he'd come to Philly before his time was done just because management wanted to stop facing him.
But as I said, I'm more intrigued now, because he has a rare trait. He can shoot the basketball without seeming biologically left behind in all other aspects of the game (see KAPONO, JASON and RUSH, KAREEM, then go back and see KAPONO, JASON again). His rebounding isn't much of a strength any more as he's gotten older, but he's Scrappy (Doo) down there and on defense, netting him more hustle plays than his deteriorating skill set would allow. This quote brought to our attention by Edg5 also foreshadows some of our future pain and suffering:
I got a call from the Sixers GM to welcome me. He told me that they liked having me around and that I wasn't just a throw in or some random player, but someone they wanted to have on their team. They told me they want to give me the freedom to play my own way, and I can't tell you how reassuring it is to hear that from the get go.
With a willingness to play anywhere, a GM who believes in the church of basketball sense, and an entire organization/city that claims to have built itself on the T-word, I don't see how Andres Nocioni doesn't get 20 minutes per game minimum. Do I want to happen? Of course not. This is nothing against Mr. Nocioni himself nor the myriad commenters that he brings to the site. I think he'd be a terrific sixth man on a championship team. A replication of his 2005-06 season would be a spectacular addition for any contender.
But as we've repeated so many times here, this Sixers team is not a championship team, even if we had given some of the yacht-jumping voters today's demand and drafted DeMarcus Cousins or Derrick Favors last month. Noce serves virtually no purpose here, except taking minutes away from Thaddeus Young in a contract year or elongating Evan Turner's development curve. A player of his skill set would be perfect next to Andre Iguodala on the wing if he were 5 years younger. He's taking up space and I don't see any way Doug Collins doesn't give him 20 minutes a night.
Continuing the sad purgatorial trials of a team caught between mediocrity and rebuilding. Welcome to Rebuilocrity; Population: Half the NBA.
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Agree, and think Nocioni is (was) a good player. Unfortunately he’s better than Thaddeus right now.
by Jordan Sams on Jul 16, 2010 6:19 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
The thing is, Thaddeus doesn’t get better with his buns cemented to the bench. Or, contrariwise, they don’t find out that Thaddeus sucks ass and doesn’t get a new contract with his buns cemented to the bench.
I suppose they can’t re-trade Nocioni…I’m not up on league rules, but I know there’s a restriction on turning around a player you just traded for.
I’m not saying they should play Noce, just that he’s better. I’d much rather Thad play because playing Noce does this team no good.
Yes, I’m afraid he is. Which is why I would try to trade him, so there’s no temptation to use him and take away Thad’s minutes.
Im pretty sure there arent restrictions on trading players. Wasnt Q-Rich traded 5 times last offseason?
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Jul 16, 2010 7:21 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Can’t trade him in a package until August 18th, but he can be moved by himself.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 16, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions
O Michael, you and your facts…
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Jul 16, 2010 11:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Where my Noce boys at?!?! Chapu?
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
Im here. Sorry, got swamped at work.
Say, did we get mentioned (albeit, obtusely) in above article? That’s cool!
Should Noce get minutes this year? Sure, maybe 10-15mins/game.
Will he get those mins? Depends on Thad, I guess.
Will he deserve those mins? He’ll play balls out so if PT is earned through effort, he’ll deserve it. If PT is earned with results, then maybe not so much.
There can only be one Noce!
Noce I respect the fact that, even in your fandom for Nocioni, you’re realistic in his playtime/ PT earned with results, that’s commendable :)
Agreed, albeit obtusely.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Jul 17, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks. I don't believe in blind love and I'll be the first to say if Noce is sucking.
But, don’t be mistaken, I’m as rabid as they come and every Noce threepointer is like a tenpoint shot to me. So get ready for some ALL CAPS and what not.
There can only be one Noce!
Why thank you.
You may regret that later in the season when I’m in rabid “Noce fan” mode. Hehehe.
There can only be one Noce!
In my opinion I would be shocked if this was the roster on opening day. Name the starting 5 and the top 8 in the rotation. (At this point NO WAY “The Villain” starts)
PG Jrue
SG Lou? Willie? Hopefully Jodie? (Someone to keep Turner’s seat warm ‘til he’s ready.)
SF Iggy
PF Brand
C Hawes
6th Man: Thad
7th: Turner
8th Speights
That leaves Nocioni, Jodie, Kapono, Willie Green and Jason Smith
I am anxious to see if Collins can give Speights more than the 16 mins he averaged last year, since Hawes will be in foul trouble someone needs big boy minutes. I just don’t see it on this roster unless there’s a lot of running small with an Iggy Thad Brand frontcourt paired with Jrue and Turner. But that’s only if you’re willing to let the other teams center wipe the floor with Elton.
Either way I’d like to see a new thread asking who everyone thinks is going to get any minutes because in my opinion the Sixers have the most scrambled egg of a team of the entire NBA and if they tip off with this squad they’re a last place team. I’d love to see them package Green and Iguodala for a marginal gritty big man like Varejao or Birdman or Andray Blatche.
Why wouldn’t ET start? If he is good enough in preseason them there is no way he shouldn’t start. Playing bad in 5 pickup ges after four months of not playing basketball is no reason not to start him.
by philsfreak6 on Jul 16, 2010 12:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Seriously? Iguodala for Birdman or Varejao? Um. No thanks. Besides the contracts not matching up. There are more reasonable packages to be put together for someone like Birdman or Varejao (although I think he makes too much money to be valuable).
How about something like Willie Green’s Expiring Contract plus Lou Williams (a future MVP!) for someone like Blatche? Maybe not Blatche because they have John Wall, who is basically a vastly superior Lou Williams. But how about maybe Nene? I hear Denver would trade him?
I’d love for it to be someone with more talent than a big role player, I know Iggy’s numbers are waaay better than people that dont frequent this site give him credit for. I just think that there’s a log jam on the wing and if Thad’s going to be playing PF wheres that leave Elton? If you are able to deal either Thad or Iguodala packaged with Green or Lou Will you accomplish two things… More PT for Jodie and Evan Turner(who I agree that 5 pickup games gives no indication of how he will fare in the league, but at the same time if Pooh Jeter and Matt Janning can get off is it too much to ask the #2 pick to get his d**k wet one night? Just once? I think that’s fair.) while obtaining a high energy PF/C. I’m not Ed Stefanski and I’m certainly no Billy King, but looking over and over at the roster I posted above I don’t see big man minutes. Mainly because I agree on Jason Smith’s DNP CDs.
Clearly there’s no NBA-caliber big man, either at the 4 or 5, on the roster. But I think Iguodala can, will and must bring more value than a mediocre tall guy. As a fan, I don’t want him traded, but it’s gotten to the point where it might make the most sense to let him out of the asylum with a little bit of his sanity intact, and start the rebuilding rolling (I spent a lot more time on this topic in my recent post “How Much is Enough?”).
So. trade Iguodala? Unfortunately yes. Get back Birdman or Varejao in return and that’s it? No thanks. Get cap relief, picks, and high-upside players on rookie contracts? ¡Si!
Get cap relief, picks, and high-upside players on rookie contracts
I agree and I think if you look at the Wizards roster I think Al Thorton, Hilton Armstrong, Andray Blatche, JaVale McGee, Hamady Ndiaye, Kevin Seraphin, Yi Jianlian are all PF/Cs and under contract. They could definately vastly improve their team by adding Iguodala. I say we target Blatche and see what they want for him, dude can flat out play.
They can keep Thornton, Armstrong and Yi. Any of the others could be included as “high-upside players” on cheap contracts. But they don’t have anyone with the contract to make things match up…and I have less than zero interest in Arenas.
Now would I be willing to consider a Blatche for Willie Green’s Expiring Contract, straight up? Yeah, why not? Blatche is more than a little bit of a head case, but I could part with Willie G for him…or a large bag of Cool Ranch Doritos :)
I used to say I would like to tie Willie to Sam and a cinder block together and throw them off the Walt Whitman, I’m pretty sure if you offered Willie for Blatche the Wiz would just hang up on you. Say what you like about their bigs, but their roster has waaay more upside than ours at this point in time. Ernie Grunfeld in a short period of time came up with Wall(luck of the draw), Arenas, Thorton, Blatche, Mcgee with Yi, Nick Young, Armstrong and Hinrich coming off the bench? Now that’s a rebuilding team, all they need to do is cut Agent Zero loose and it’s on in D.C.
The thing is, Willie Green is no longer Willie Green. He is now Willie Green’s Expiring Contract. That’s all he is. $4M in cap relief. Although the Wiz don’t really need it, since they’re about $15M under the cap even with Arenas.
However, I suspect you’re right about them hanging up. On the other hand, there is no way the Sixers are going to take just Blatche for Iguodala. If it were me, there would be no way I would give up the one valuable trade asset on the roster for pennies on the ‘dala, so to speak. I’ve come to the regretful conclusion that trading Iguodala is the only way to get seriously started on rebuilding (unless someone is stupid enough to take Brand without sending their own toxic waste back). Getting rid of Iguodala for the sake of getting rid of him is exactly what they do NOT need to do. Giving up Iguodala for serious future value (in picks and high-upside young players on cheap contracts) plus cap relief is what has to happen to get the rebuilding on. Essentially, at that point, Brand would be their Arenas…that one really regrettable contract stuck on the roster, but things are going to be OK anyway.
Trade? Yes. Rape? No.
I agree with you and I like your ‘“pennies on the ’dala” malapropism. I’m stealing from you and using it at work and with friends I hope you don’t mind. I’m on board with Iggy 17.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.8 apg, and 1.7 spg will be missed. But again with Jrue, Jodie, Turner, Lou Will, Thad, Iggy, Willie, and Kapono I think two things; 1. Jrue and The Villain are untouchable. 2. Iguodala is our most valuable chip and I agree with you its not a chip we should just cash in on principle. But something needs to be done to get our young guys burn and there’s a void in big man minutes.
By the way I’m new to this site, is everyone ok with people using “we” when we talk Sixers?
Just as an interesting note. I’m watching the Kings/Mavs summer league game (DeMarcus Cousins has been sucking total ass, by the way, for those who thought he was superhuman), and they flashed up the Mavs roster for this year. They have a crap pile of decent/interesting/upsidey bigs, and there can’t be enough minutes for all of them. Wonder if there might be a deal to be made there.
Noce will be playing in the World Championships this year so he's going to be...
…in basketball shape from the get-go.
I think he’ll get a lot of mins at the start of the season because he’s already in mid season form.
Then he’s going to tire by the All Star Break and play really crappy, giving Thad etc…loads of minutes at SF.
There can only be one Noce!
I think Thad will mostly be used at the PF position this year. I’m not saying I want Thad to be used at the PF position, but hearing Collin’s interviews, this is the impression that I get. Look for Nocioni to play SF, coming in for either Iguodala or Turner.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
In November or December, Noce might be in better basketball shape than most players,
regardless of whether he plays at the 3 or the 4. But by Feb, he’s not gonna be the same person. But if a miracle occurs and the Sixers get to the playoffs, you are going to love him. His play goes up by 2 or 3 notches. He loves the playoffs, man.
There can only be one Noce!
Thad made his own bed.
Thad put himself in this situation. He obviously is not the shooter we thought he would become, or he obviously hasn’t taken his JOB serious enough to improve in the areas needed. So Noce gives him someone to compete with. I say if he can’t beat Noce for the backup 3 then he better beat Jason Smith for the backup 4. If he can’t do either then move him while someone else might still see upside in him. Might be a mistake in the long run, but it might just be the culture change and message this team needs to send to it’s players. Put up or Get out.
(The other reason I don’t think it would be a mistake to let him go is, we held on to Sammy and how’d that work out, held on to Willie how’d that work out. Come to think about it the only guy we let go in the last 10 years that had more success somewhere else was Raja Bell.) Might be someone I’m forgetting but the list is not long.
in terms of playing time, I would be shocked if Jason Smith was anything more than DNPCD for about 80% of the games.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
Unfortunately, Jason Smith is the #4 big man right now, and a full-fledged member of the Axis of Crappy (Brand, Hawes, Speights, and Smith). Thad is sort of an adjunct member of the Axis right now, until we see how Collins will actually use him.
The question is, who would you rather see out there getting minutes at C: Speights or Smith? At PF: Thad or Smith? I’m assuming, of course, that Brand starts at PF and Hawes starts at C.
Sheesh. I looked at what I just typed. This is pathetic. How does an NBA team get themselves into this situation? (Heavy sigh) What is Jason Smith doing in a discussion about getting minutes in an NBA rotation? What is Spencer Hawes doing starting on an NBA team? Why is Elton Brand not retired?
I hate this. I’m sorry.
Yes, John Salmons…Knew I was forgetting someone. I also agree that Jason Smith will have more DNPCD than games played. But agree on this if John Salmons and Raja Bell are the big misses the sixers have had when trading or not resigning a youthful player…I can live with that more than I can live with 7 years of Willie or 8 years of Sammy.
I like Thad and would love to see him be something like an Antawn Jamison (of course I mean his prime years) But he has to develop fast. I almost fall for the…well he hasn’t really had a coach that could help develop him argument. But then I realize something, players get better because they want to, sure coaching and a system will help them win. But a coach and a system can only do so much, the player has to put in the work not just show up to PRACTICE. (thanks Allen)
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