Defense and Bigs

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 4:40 AM PDT

After Sam Dalembert was traded, a lot of sixers fans were left scratching their heads. Afterall, Sam was the only big on our team that gave us consistent rebounding, shot blocking, and competent defense. More so, he was a presence in the paint. You could literally see the difference it made having him in the line-up as opposed to on the bench. So why Dalembert was traded for a 22 year old center who lacks rebounding and defense and a "tough guy" with a DUI who plays a position currently clogged on our roster is beyond me.

If we draft Turner in the coming days we will have the starting PG/SG/SF position locked up defensively. However, this leaves a hole in our front court. If we don't have a competent big on our roster, how can we possibly be a good defensive team next season?

To cheer myself up (ok, it's because I'm a loser and had too much free time on my hands today), I decided to take a look at Collin's coaching history and compile a list of the bigs (those listed as C or F-C) for each of his complete seasons (thus, Pistons '97-'98 is not included). I've listed each player's offensive and defensive rebounding percentage (ORB% & DRB%), offensive and defensive rating (Ortg & Drtg), and offensive and defensive win shares (OWS & DWS) in the tables. Above the tables I've listed the season, record, ppg, oppg, and offensive and defensive ratings.

After the jump, you can take a look at all of the cool things I've compiled and read the observations/analysis and/or use the information to make your own observations/analysis.

All information listed was derived from www.basketballreference.com

Note: I've decided to list rebounding percentages to show what bigs were capable (or incapable) rebounders during Collins' reign. I've also decided to list offensive/defensive ratings and offensive/defensive win shares to show how each player contributed defensively when compared to their offensive production. Furthermore, I listed the team stats above each table to show how the team faired as a whole. Lastly, I put the "best" players in terms of the stats provided in bold (I put "bold" in bold in case you didn't know what "bold" was).

Chicago Bulls 1986-1987
Record: 40-42
Points Per Game: 104.8 (20th of 23)
Opponent Points Per Game: 103.9 (2nd of 23)
Offensive Rating: 108.6 (12th of 23)
Defensive Rating: 107.6 (11th of 23)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Mike Brown	9.7%	20.2%	101	107	0.1	0.9
Dave Corzine	9.7%	17.3%	108	108	1.7	2.5
Earl Cureton	11.4%	11.9%	106	110	0.6	0.9
Charles Oakley	11.2%	30.1%	97	104	-1.1	4.6
Ben Poquette	6.7%	9.7%	121	108	0.3	0.2
Brad Sellers	9.8%	14.4%	107	108	1.4	2.0
Granville Waiters	7.9%	10.6%	99	108	0.0	0.6

Chicago Bulls 1987-1988
Record: 50-32
Points Per Game: 105.0 (19th of 23)
Opponent Points Per Game: 101.6 (1st of 23)
Offensive Rating: 109.0 (9th of 23)
Defensive Rating: 105.5 (3rd of 23)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Mike Brown	12.9%	17.9%	100	107	0.0	0.7
Dave Corzine	8.4%	17.5%	109	105	1.6	2.6
Artis Gilmore	4.7%	14.7%	89	107	-0.3	0.4
Charles Oakley	13.4%	30.0%	106	103	2.0	4.7
Horace Grant	9.8%	18.2%	109	105	1.6	2.6
Brad Sellers	5.6%	7.4%	105	109	1.3	2.0
Granville Waiters	9.1%	19.0%	69	100	-0.3	0.2

Chicago Bulls 1988-1989
Record: 47-35
Points Per Game: 106.4 (17th of 25)
Opponent Points Per Game: 1.5.0 (5th of 25)
Offensive Rating: 109.1 (12th of 25)
Defensive Rating: 107.7 (11th of 25)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Bill Cartwright	7.8%	17.7%	100	109	0.1	2.0
Dave Corzine	7.4%	16.8%	99	108	-0.1	1.5
Horace Grant	10.2%	17.6%	112	107	3.3	3.1
Jack Haley	8.7	19.4	100	107	0.0	0.3
Will Perdue	11.3%	15.9%	87	108	-0.3	0.2
Brad Sellers	5.9%	9.2%	108	110	1.3	1.4

Detroit Pistons 1995-1996
Record: 46-36
Points Per Game: 95.4 (25th of 29)
Opponent Points Per Game: 92.9 (2nd of 29)
Offensive Rating: 107.9 (15th of 29)
Defensive Rating: 105.1 (7th of 29)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Eric Leckner	6.5%	19.5%	100	104	0.0	0.2
Theo Ratliff	10.6%	16.7%	115	102	1.6	2.2
Otis Thorpe	9.3%	19.6%	109	104	3.5	4.1
Mark West	9.0%	14.4%	97	105	-0.1	1.0

Detroit Pistons 1996-1997
Record: 54-28
Points Per Game: 94.2 (24th of 29)
Opponent Points Per Game: 88.9 (2nd of 29)
Offensive Rating: 110.6 (5th of 29)
Defensive Rating: 104.4 (11th of 29)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Rick Mahorn	11.1%	19.0%	96	104	0.0	0.3
Theo Ratliff	10.7%	13.9%	111	102	1.8	2.1
Otis Thorpe	10.8	18.1	112	105	4.5	3.4

Detroit Pistons : 1997-1998
Record: 37-45
Under Doug Collins: 21-24

Washington Wizards
Record: 37-45
Points Per Game: 92.8 (21st of 29)
Opponent Points Per Game: 94.2 (11th of 29)
Offensive Rating: 104.8 (13th of 29)
Defensive Rating: 106.4 (21st of 29)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Brendan Haywood	13.0%	16.6%	112	104	1.7	1.4
Christian Laettner	5.9%	18.5%	103	104	0.9	1.6
Jahidi White	13.6%	24.9%	109	102	1.5	1.8

Washington Wizards
Record: 37-45
Points Per Game: 91.5 (24th of 29)
Opponent Points Per Game: 92.5 (10th of 29)
Offensive Rating: 103.0 (21st of 29)
Defensive Rating: 104.1 (18th of 29)

Player	ORB%	DRB%	Ortg	Drtg	OWS	DWS
Brendan Haywood	11.7%	13.0%	115	104	3.1	1.9
Christian Laettner	6.1%	20.8%	113	102	3.8	2.8
Jahidi White	19.0%	18.6%	113	104	0.4	0.2
Charles Oakley	8.5%	16.2%	110	105	0.5	0.5

Observations/Analysis:
The best defensive season under Collins is the '87-'88 season when their 105.5 defensive rating put them 3rd best in the league. This also happened to be Collins' best season coaching the bulls. The most dominant big was Charles Oakley with a 30+% DRB% and 4.7 DWS. The following season he was off the roster and Bulls went from 3rd best defensive rating to 11th. I'm not saying there is a direct correlation here, but I have no doubt that Oakley's defensive contributions were beneficial to the team.
The '95-'96 Pistons were 7th best in terms of defensive rating, but none of the bigs on the roster were dominant defensive rebounders.
The information regarding the Wizards tells me that Collins has coached bad rosters and made them improve slightly on the defensive end- 21st in defensive rating in 2001 and 18th in defensive rating in 2002.
In general, Collins either coached decent defensive teams, or made them improve if they were already poor defensively.

Conclusion(s):

Since I am no expert in the statistical analysis department, I am not entirely sure what to conclude from the information. Any feedback in terms of criticism/analysis is more than welcome. What I was able to draw from this information is that Collins has coached bad defensive teams and good defensive teams. However, the roster didn’t necessarily have to have dominant defensive rebounding bigs in order to be a good team defensively. This is not to say that rebounding isn’t important, or that this is a blueprint to success. What is can indicate is that Collins can coach defense and make it work with differing rosters.

Whether or not this Sixers roster will be effective on the defensive end is difficult to tell. However, based on his past coaching, I’m confident they will at least improve by the second year. How do I know this? Collins has coached good teams in the past. By now, he should know what makes a team good and what doesn't. If the holes in our front court make us a poor defensive team this season, I have no doubt that some type of roster change will be made to improve. The recent Dalembert trade seems like a gamble (to be polite), but it also seems like the beginning to a long line of transactions.

Have at it in the comments. Go easy on me since I am very sensitive and tend to cry like a wussy girl (or do I?).

Another user-created commentary provided by a Liberty Ballers reader.

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Comments

Awesome post, man.

The Sixers should have bigs who rebound like the bigs Collins had on the 88-89 Bulls, 95-96 Pistons, and 96-97 Pistons, who ranked 11th, 7th, and 11th in defensive efficiciency. I expect Brand, Hawes, Speights, and Nocioni all to be in between 17-20 DREB%, but unlike the three teams mentioned above, the Sixers don’t really have a defensive anchor. No Theo, No Horace. However; with plus-rebounder and plus-defenders at the 1-2-3, it’s not out of the question for the Sixers to be a top 11 defense. I believe if they kept Sammy they would’ve been a top 7 D, though.

Again, good post man.

P.S. I consider DRtg pretty useless.

Liberty Ballers.com. II @LibertyBallers.

by Jordan Sams on Jun 21, 2010 5:49 AM PDT reply actions

Thanks, and yeah, just figured I would throw DRtg out there because it was available.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 5:55 AM PDT up reply actions

Doesn’t hurt …

You think this team can effective defensively? It’s hard to believe a team with Jrue, Andre, Turner will be below average defensively. Hawes, Speights, Brand and Nocioni are also all capable of grabbing 20% DREBs, which — combined with the guards + Iguodala’s rebounder — could make them an above average rebounding team.

Liberty Ballers.com. II @LibertyBallers.

by Jordan Sams on Jun 21, 2010 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions

If I recall Collin’s press conference, he mentioned building slowly and doing the right things. I suppose this meant he didn’t want to coach a guy like Dalembert who apparently put a damper in the locker room the past few seasons.
What I think this means now is that it’s ever more important to have PG-SF positions capable of guarding their man (no more Lou yelling at his man blowing right by him) to prevent drives to the basket. That’s our best chance at being decent defensively this year. Perhaps Hawes will have a year to show he can be at least an average defender. If not, bye-bye, hopefully. Regardless, I think Collins has his work cut our for him. I hope he’s ready to deal with a 22year old project whom apparently has a poor work ethic (in addition to Speights).

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 6:08 AM PDT up reply actions

my main man jefu doin big boy things – that was great stuff

thanks for the reminder that jahaidi “haidy-ho” white was in the nba and was pretty nasty on the boards

i’m not exactly sure what to take out of this in terms of collins (would be interesting to see how players got better/regressed but that’s a poop load of work) but it does remind me that we don’t have a big defensive presence like most of his previous teams

like jordan said it is hard to imagine the sixers being below average defensively with a backcourt of jrue, villain, and andre – if the bigs can put up, at best, an average performance on the defensive end i think this team will be in the top half of defensive rating

"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George

LibertyBallers : @tsteidel

by Tanner Steidel on Jun 21, 2010 8:54 AM PDT reply actions

Yeah, the good thing about tracking a coach who doesn’t get fired after each season is you can see roster moves and player progression/regression after each season.
I was hoping that anyone older than two during Collins’ first coaching season could help me out with specific memories of these players in terms of performance and ability.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions

I think Collins is a good coach, but no amount of good coaching will make up for a roster lacking talent.

On the defensive end, bigs prevent players from trying to penetrate the lane. If a player gets past your first line of defense, the big is supposed to be there to stop the score, by altering or blocking the shot. Further the bigs secure rebounds on the defensive end.

The ability for a team to do these things is essential. Successful, (winning) teams have the best big men.

Jrue. Turner and Andre won’t be able to play the passing lanes if there isn’t a big behind them if they gamble. If there isn’t a big inside, the opposing team will keep feeding their big man and we’ll get killed on the defensive end, much like we did this season when Sam was out of the game.

by RickoT on Jun 21, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions

“Jrue. Turner and Andre won’t be able to play the passing lanes if there isn’t a big behind them if they gamble”

Isn’t part of playing good defense not taking gambles? Iverson took a lot of gambles, which led to steals some of the time, but he was not good at defending. I think the fact that our frontcourt is much weaker now, it’s ever more important that carelessness is avoided.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions

I rate steals and forcing turnovers as big defensive priorities. A pressure defense sometimes requires players to take chances, a little lean this way or that to get into the passing lane.

As straight up defenders, they should all be able to stay in front of their man, as long as they aren’t picked off. You always need a big in those situations to cover.

If you don’t gamble, you aren’t going to force a lot of turnovers or mistakes on the other teams. Most teams don’t have enough good ball-handlers or passers, and if you make the pass hard enough, they will screw up.

The other important point is that if you don’t have bigs, the other team will just lob it inside. All the guys we have now at Center are good for fouling, but not much in the way of straight up “d”.

by RickoT on Jun 21, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions

“I rate steals and forcing turnovers as big defensive priorities.”

I’m well aware that you do, and that’s what makes you the Ricko that everyone loves. However, there are other ways to force turnovers other than steals. If I was a good coach, I woudn’t tell my players that they have to go for the steal on every defensive play. That’s too risky and any NBA team will suffer from it.

“Most teams don’t have enough good ball-handlers or passers, and if you make the pass hard enough, they will screw up.”

I have no doubt in my mind that you just pulled that completely out of thin air. We’re talking about NBA players here. I would think that most of them are capable of making a pass. Not to mention, going for a steal is different from altering a pass. Good defense is where you try to alter passes/shots. Bad defense is where you always gamble and try to go for the steal.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions

Not out of thin air, but observation. And in this instance I’m talking playoff teams. It’s not coincidence that LA and Boston were in the finals. They both play great defense and are patient- which is to say they don’t always force things. Of course they also have two bigs on the floor at the same time to prevent people from driving the lane. WIthout gambling they were both able to control the game simply by being patient.

ON defense the shot clock is on your side, as time goes on a team will force up a bad shot if they can’t get a good one.

But how are the Sixers going to defend the post with what they have? Unless/Until Hawes and Speghts fill out, or Jason Smith shows me he can bang with the big players down low, we’re going to be a bad defensive team and give up a lot of 2nd and 3rd shots.

Teams will pass over the top or drive the lane with no fear of their shot being blocked. They’re going to get good shots since there are no shot blockers. The Sixers can’t play defense like the best teams, simply because they aren’t constructed that way.

Sam was our best defender and we were a bad defensive team last season. Unless something changes we’re going to be worse.

by RickoT on Jun 23, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions

You know Boston was one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, right?

by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions

I enjoy how you didn’t address any of my counter-points.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 23, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions

If you’re surprised by that I’m shocked

by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Actually I did. First I agreed with you that better defenses try to alter passes/shots.

Then I asked you to explain how the Sixers can play that way without a solid big man in the middle, like Boston and LA do.

It’s not just about rebounding, it’s about making teams take tough shots, which means outside shots, not attempts in the lane. I think you have to agree with that.

Do you think there is an effective way to do that without a man who can block and alter shots in the middle because of his size, and keep teams from trying to dump the ball inside against a man who can block their shots? If so, I’d love to hear it.

by RickoT on Jun 23, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions

my counter point was referring to passes:
“We’re talking about NBA players here. I would think that most of them are capable of making a pass.”

Once again, you somehow chose to ignore this and swung the argument/conversation back to big men and shotblocking. But since I’m in a festive mood, let’s stick with this here.

You said:
“It’s not just about rebounding, it’s about making teams take tough shots, which means outside shots, not attempts in the lane. I think you have to agree with that.”

That all depends on who is taking the outside shot and who is taking the attempt in the lane. For example, I would much rather see Kapono attempt a three pointer than a drive to basket. If you factor in efficiency field goal (eFG) , settling for a perimeter shot, if taken by the right person at the right time is not necessarily a bad thing.
Let’s take this a step further – we can all agree that Dalembert was a capable defensive center who could alter shots in the lane. However, where the sixers made defensive errors last year was with team/help defense. By having all five players (and thus Dalembert) constantly switching, that left open perimeter shooters and a 39% opponent three point percentage. So yes, having a solid big man who can alter shots is important, but it doesn’t necessarily equate to a tough shot by the opponent.

You said:
“Do you think there is an effective way to do that without a man who can block and alter shots in the middle because of his size”

If size was the only factor in being a center, Thabeet would have been a super star last year.

If this was all in reference to my post, I was basically trying to see what big men Collins had worked with, how effective were they at rebounding (along with some other defensive/offensive metrics) and how the entire team did defensively in comparison. It would be quite difficult to find a statistic that tracks a center’s effectiveness at altering shots. If you can find one, I’d love to hear it.
Again, through my research, I found that Collins has coached teams that did not have dominant defensive rebounding big men, but still had a good team defensive rating nonetheless.
So in your conclusion to your question, ask Doug Collins.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 23, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Lets take on the tough shots bit for a second, you’re being cute with the examples but I am sure that you know as well as I that the highest shooting percentages are with Centers and Power Forwards. It is much less likely to miss a layup than a three! If you force teams to keep taking outside shots- with a little pressure, they will start missing. No team that lives by the three has ever won an NBA title.

Obviously size isn’t the only factor in being a good big man. I saw Ewe Blap play for the Dallas Mavericks, the first practice they had Derrek Harper show everyone a dribbling drill where they would dribble the ball around their legs in a figure eight. Ewe couldn’t do it without loosing the ball! Ewe was a bust.

I agree that Collins is a very good teacher and has a superior understanding of the game, but he still needs players capable of doing the job. In order to dominate on the defensive end, the big man needs sufficient size to deter inside shots- this is about strength as well as quickness and footwork. Denying inside position.

Do you think we have a Center on the roster who can do that now?

Note Collins record his last 2 season with Washington. He didn’t improve the team in spite of adding Oakley to his front line. You have to have the players. Consecutive 37-45 seasons suck and Collins lost the job.

As for passing, there are a lot of factors to consider, but when i say that teams struggle to make a good pass, I’m thinking of times when a team plays a superior defending team, like when Boston beat Orlando. Orlando likes to shoot from the outside and likes to swing the ball around, but had trouble playing that game against the Celtics. Without Dwight constantly scoring, their game fell apart, and Dwight was over-matched inside against Perkins and Garnet who could come help since he was on VC. This meant Orlando had to make more passes than they used to, and their outside shooters still could not get open.

My premise is that you cannot play good team defense without a big in the middle. Find me a team that did play good defense without one, win more than 50 games without one, and I’ll agree with you, and don’t try using Chicago, who while not having an elite Center, won championships relying on tough guys like Brian Grant, size and shot blocking with Bill Cartwright and later on with Bill Wennington. Other player provided the offense but their interior defense was stifling.

by RickoT on Jun 24, 2010 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions

don’t try using Chicago, who while not having an elite Center, won championships relying on tough guys like Brian Grant, size and shot blocking with Bill Cartwright and later on with Bill Wennington. Other player provided the offense but their interior defense was stifling.

Neither Cartwright nor Wennington ever had more than 0.5 blocks per game as a Bull.

by yosoysean on Jun 24, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions

Also you are confusing your Grants. Bulls had Horace Grant, not Brian.

by yosoysean on Jun 24, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions

if you’re going to talk about field goal percentage, first try understanding efficiency field goal percentage, because I don’t think that you do.

“Obviously size isn’t the only factor in being a good big man”

you said it, not me.

“Do you think we have a Center on the roster who can do that now?”

I never claimed we did. If you actually read peoples’ posts you would know that.

“My premise is that you cannot play good team defense without a big in the middle. Find me a team that did play good defense without one, win more than 50 games without one, and I’ll agree with you, and don’t try using Chicago, who while not having an elite Center, won championships relying on tough guys like Brian Grant, size and shot blocking with Bill Cartwright and later on with Bill Wennington. Other player provided the offense but their interior defense was stifling.”

Your comments are just…way off base. I don’t even think you read, or attempted to understand my post. But that’s ok.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 24, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions

by then oakly was old

by killacaravagio on Jun 24, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions

yeah, that and a whole slew of other comments…head scratching.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 24, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions

looks like he maybe bring back oakley

by killacaravagio on Jun 21, 2010 12:22 PM PDT reply actions

this team needs some of the oak-man.

"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan

by jefu on Jun 21, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions

Y’know, Oakley would be the absolutely perfect player for this roster. Where is this year’s Oakley?

by dweebowitz on Jun 21, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Here

Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn

by Michael Levin on Jun 21, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Whosat?

by dweebowitz on Jun 21, 2010 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Ask Scott Schroeder

Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn

by Michael Levin on Jun 21, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions

looks worth a shot to me

by killacaravagio on Jun 21, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions

I didn’t even realize that he was still around.

by yosoysean on Jun 22, 2010 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions

Be Patient

We’re not gonna pass up a talent like Turner to fill in the lane. Wait until the trade deadline or sometime before then and I bet the Sixers will find someone to pick up/sign/trade for in order to get a chunky big in the lane cuz everyone knows Brand isn’t the beef we need between the buns.

by LouWilliamsMVP on Jun 22, 2010 1:42 PM PDT reply actions