Making Sense of the Dalembert Trade
by Jordan Sams on Jun 21, 2010 12:15 AM PDT
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116 comments
There have been rumors of Dalembert's departure for years, and I vaguely remember the Kings mentioned a time or two as possible destinations, but I was shocked when the news broke. My first reaction was "YES! The Sixers made a trade!" After digesting the trade I asked myself, "Wait, is this good or bad?" Hours later my mind was still scrambled. The trade is so simple, yet complicated.
"Basketball Sense"
There's no doubt in my mind that this trade makes the Sixers a worse basketball team. Sam was the anchor of their defense, an elite rebounder, and the second best player on the team last season. Trading away the anchor of your defense and an elite rebounder for Nocioni and Hawes does not make "basketball sense" for the Sixers, despite what Ed Stefanski says.
We just witnessed how important rebounding is in the NBA Finals. The team who won the rebounding battle won all seven games. After the Dalembert trade, the Sixers currently have zero players who ranked in the top 88 in DREB% last season. FYI: The Lakers and Celtics both had three in the top 88.
Deadline Deal
Could Stefanski have gotten more in return for Dalembert at the trade deadline? Maybe, but here's two trades made in the past two years involving players similar to Dalembert.
Marcus Camby for Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw
Tyson Chandler for Chris Wilcox and Joe Smith (rescinded)
Contracts, age, etc. were obviously taken into account when these deals were made, but looking at the deals simply, the market for shot-blocking/rebounding big men isn't exactly booming. Also, Dalembert is the same player who the Sixers couldn't give away at back-to-back deadlines. 'Tis true that Stefanski might have been able to obtain slightly more value at this year's deadline, but it's no forgone conclusion.
Spencer's Gifts
Hawes is obviously the centerpiece of the deal for the Sixers. He's 22 years old and on the last year of his rookie contract. I've only seen Spencer play a few times, so I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about him, but there's reason to believe he could turn into a valuable NBA player.
According to Aykis16 from Sactown Royalty, he has some skills on the offensive end:
Spencer is not your typical center. He's definitely in the mold of Brad Miller and Vlade Divac (and soon to be NBA player Greg Monroe), in that he likes to play in the high post and pass the ball, as well as shoot jumpers. He actually has a pretty advanced post-game down low, but his lack of strength and explosiveness causes him to get his shot blocked quite a bit. Additional strength is a must for Spencer to end up succeeding.
Spencer definitely has range on his shot, although his percentages aren't that great, but he can hit the mid-range jumper at a dependable rate, and his 3 is good enough to keep defenses honest.
Having a big man who can pass, post, and stretch the defense is a valuable piece to have -- ask every team who faced Pau Gasol this post-season. The big knocks on Hawes are his rebounding and defense. Last year he grabbed just 17.7% of the defensive rebound available to him, making him one of the worst rebounding centers in the league. However; in the two previous seasons he grabbed 20.5%, which would've made him the Sixers second best defensive rebounder last year, and placed him between Andrew Bynum and Marc Gasol in terms of statistics. Since he tallied pretty good DREB% numbers his first two seasons, I'll chalk this past season's ugly number up as an aberration -- for now.
Defense isn't as easy to evaluate with numbers, but not for nothing, here's how Spencer rated in my favorite defensive statistic, (provided by Basketball Prospectus) dMULT. Spencer's dMULT last season was 1.036, meaning Hawes allowed his counterparts to achieve 103.6% of their normal production on a per possession basis. To put that in perspective Sam Dalembert, Marcus Camby, Brook Lopez, and Chris Kaman's dMULT last year were 0.946, 0.933, 1.121, and 1.103 respectively. According to the dMULT stat, Hawes is a below average defensive center, ranking somewhere between 18-20.
Overall, if he can improve his defense just a little, revert back to his rookie-sophomore season rebounding, and make better decisions offensively he could be a nice piece for the Sixers. The problem is, his rookie contract expires after the upcoming season, so he has one year to prove himself, and the Sixers have one year to make a potentially crucial decision.
Andres "Toughness" Nocioni
Not only does Nocioni bring his large following to Liberty Ballers, he also brings much-needed three point range and defensive rebounding to the Sixers, and arguably becomes the Sixers best small forward not named Iguodala (sad, I know).
Like Hawes, Nocioni saw a significant drop-off in his numbers last year. A normally great defensive rebounder (18.4% career) grabbed only 14.9%. He also went from a field goal percentage of 43 the year before to 40, and even dropped from an 80 percent free throw percentage (career) to 72 percent. Whether it was injuries, him being a diva, work ethic, or the beginning of the end remains to be seen, but even last year's Nocioni was better than Thad and Kapono.
Noce also gives the Sixers lineup versatility, since he's the best option to play at power forward when Collins decides to go small. Unlike Thad and Kapono, he won't get murdered on the glass. As a matter of fact, his career 18.4 DREB% is the 10th best DREB% for a player 6'7'' or taller, since he entered the league.
Andres is 30 years old, has two years left on his current contract (team-option for the third), owed around 13 million, and I have no idea what the Sixers plan to do with him. Will he be traded again? Do they plan on playing him more than Thad? Is he part of their long-term plans? Or will he be treated like a throw-in?
Re-Building?
Was this step one of the re-building process? Are there more moves on the way? This is the aspect of the deal that confuses me the most. Does Stefanski really believe this deal made his team better? I hope not. If this move was step one to a re-building phase, the Sixers accomplished a few things. First, they made their team worse for next season -- giving them a better chance at a lottery pick. Second, they avoided letting Samuel Dalembert walk for nothing. Last, they acquired another young player to work with. If this trade had nothing to do with re-building, and was more of an attempt at a quick fix, than I don't know what to tell you.
Conclusion
Ed Stefanski's motives for making this deal were probably as follows:
- Get under the luxury tax.
- Don't allow Dalembert to walk for nothing a la Andre Miller.
- Give Spencer Hawes a one year try out.
- Acquire Nocioni's moderately-bad contract to accomplish first three.
- Make a deal he could spin as making "basketball sense".
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Other than Favors and Cousins, I think Hawes has as much upside as any other big in this draft. I am looking at it as a rebuilding move and adding a future piece to our frontcourt rotation. With a coach that can actually hold our young players accountable I like the chance of Hawes becoming the best he can be.
Nucioni, if he replaces Kapono!s minutes, should be an improvement in a lot of ways. Can some of his physicalness rub off on Thad, hopefully.
I’d say Whiteside and Seraphin have higher upsides but with a smaller chance to reach the upsides, but your point about Hawes having a lot of upside is still a valid point.
I’m really hoping Collins can somehow get Hawes going on the right track. Get him to bulk up, get him to put out more effort on the court, etc. Just make him into a solid starting C. He’s definitely young enough to be a building block for this team.
I’m agreeing with everything everyone is saying. Where am I? Can we cuddle or something?
by Michael Levin on Jun 21, 2010 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Hawes has as much upside as any other big in this draft.
What are you basing this off of? Optimism. I just can’t agree with this. I think if Spencer was in the draft this year he wouldn’t hit the first round. He is a below average rebounder, a below average defender, and not a decidedly efficient offensive player. He doesn’t have a single strength to his game that you could project as improving into a strength. Yes he can play the high post on offense, but that’s only because he lacks the strength or attitude to mix it up down low. He’s not athletic enough to guard stretch bigs, not strong enough to guard the post. Wherever he tries to play defense he doesn’t rebound particularly well.
Spencer’s upside is gone. He wasn’t productive in college, he hasn’t been productive in the NBA even though he was given a substantial amount of minutes and a starting job, more opportunity than many draft picks get. This trade was all about getting under the tax. Spencer will be cut after this season, and Nocioni may have some trade value next summer as an expiring. This trade nets a substantial monetary benefit for the Sixers this year by getting under the tax, and now being in line to collect tax payments from the teams over the tax. Comcast got the upside in this trade in cold hard cash.
Take a look at Brad Miller’s first two years.
98-99 CHA – 6 ppg, 3 rpg, 0.5 bpg
99-00 CHA – 8 ppg, 5 rpg, 0.6 bpg
Spencer Hawes-
07-08 SAC – 5 ppg, 3 rpg, 0.6 bpg
08-09 SAC – 11 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.2 bpg
Both of them have similar games. I can’t see why people are calling him useless, especially if he can develop into what Brad Miler did.
People are calling him useless on the defensive end
noticing his injury history and his ‘work ethic’ history
What exactly does he bring to the sixers that Speights doesn’t – maybe passing?
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
And a better three point shot, but that’s about it.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Well as the saying goes…offfense wins championships
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure Speights has far more potential, based on his vastly superior athleticism when in shape. Does that count?
I was wondering what Hawes brings that speights doesn’t :)
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I know. He brings a distinct lack of athleticism that Speights doesn’t.
I can’t stand the idea of Hawes. I know Derek seems to think he’s not bad, but I guess I’m too old to completely commit to stats and disregard the “eye test”.
Not sure how ‘old’ you are – and I’m not sure derek disregards the eye test – no one says you can’t use both – it’s just most that ignore stats feel that the people who pay attention to stats ignore the game of the player.
Here’s the point…the stats tell you hella more than your eye can and the stats encompass MORE than your eye will ever see – no reason you can’t use both
The eye lies
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I recognize the value of the stats. It’s just that what my eye shows me is an unathletic tall guy who is a below-average rebounder and a poor defender. Another 7-foot guy who wants to shoot midrange jumpers and doesn’t do it especially well. Basically, Jason Smith, with, admittedly, a bit more talent. I don’t know that my eye lies that much.
And I don’t think ANYONE has argued that Hawes is good defensively, have they?
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
And my gut feeling was that this entire trade was about the 3 million dollars they are saving and the rest is just the sixers trying to justify it some other way to convince people not to bail on season tickets or that they might actually use that MLE this off season.
Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul – dealt with this seasons luxury tax issue but had to take on extra money the year after.
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Miller was a better shooter, had a better A/TO as a high post facilitator, and had a higher rebound rate. Miller didn’t play nearly as many minutes as Hawes, but was better Per 36 minutes at nearly every thing. The main difference however is shooting:
Miller first three years TS%: .651, .558, .520. That .520 was the lowest TS% of his career as his career rate is .567.
Hawes first three years TS%: .486, .509, .507
Miller didn’t have any value on defense, like hawes, but he was a better rebounder, a better shooter, and a much better offensive player. It’s just not a solid comparison.
Miller also had 3 more years of college than Hawes.
Miller’s career DRB% was 21. Hawes was at 20.1% and 20.9% before last season’s disappointment.
All we’re saying is that he has potential to be a similar player. He’s obviously not there yet. He’s now at the same age that Miller was when he entered the NBA. He has time to reach that potential. The question is if he wants to work hard enough to achieve it.
Except the sixers don’t have that kind of time – they need to figure it out this season
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
He’ll be a restricted FA in 2011-2012. Do you really think there’s a team out there who will sign him to a big contract that the Sixers wouldn’t match if he doesn’t improve? Most likely case seems to me that the Sixers sign him to the qualifying offer and get another year out of him.
And then he’s an unrestricted free agent and can sign with anyone he wants to, and I think whomever signs him to a long term deal is going to make a mistake, and Stefanski (like King before him) seems to bid against himself in Free Agency
Hawes and Young both in restricted contract drive years, with a looming lock out – that’s fun
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
My point is that they have two seasons to see what direction Hawes’ development is taking and how he fits with the team. You may be in the belief that Ed will ultimately screw it up anyway but they certainly have enough time to make a decision.
Maybe they have two seasons, maybe they don’t – you can’t be sure they will – you presume they will
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve got evidence that ed will screw everything up though :)
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, because that’s what I said.
What I said is that there is evidence that Stefanski will screw everything up. Said evidence being everything he’s done since he became GM of the sixers, as a whole, tells me that he’s a bad GM…
There’s no reason to believe he’ll suddenly become a good or smart GM in a year
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re the one that inferred that you can predict future events with 100% accuracy. I was just playing along with your silly statement.
It’s a shame when our education system fails someone so badly the concept of EVIDENCE seems to be magical
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
You may have evidence that past events have happened. I’m not convinced you have evidence that future events will occur.
The past is prologue
and with that i’m done talking to you until you have a point
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure there ever is a point in disagreeing with you. It either leads to nowhere and/or to a place that is irrelevant to the original topic that was being discussed.
by yosoysean on Jun 21, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hm?
You don’t have “evidence” that will suggest anything. You have basics for your argument that Ed will suck at everything in the future, but no “evidence”
If anything, YOUR education failed you. ;)
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Speedingtime on Jun 21, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
If you say so, Ed’s past peformance is evidence to me as to how his future will perform, and it will perform poorly – unless comcast comes to their senses and fires him
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, your probably right.
People rarely change…
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Speedingtime on Jun 21, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, your probably right.
If anything, YOUR education failed you. ;)
I’m left handed actually
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Touche ;)
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Speedingtime on Jun 21, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Kate Fagan might add another to the list...
Fagan, who doesn’t seem to play Bull^%$ as much as most journalists, made a strong argument that getting rid of SamD was largely about chemistry on a young team. Now I come from mostly a baseball background, and usually poopoo chemistry arguments, but the sport of basketball, and the culture around the sport, seems like it is more susceptible to cancerous players both on the court and off due to the way the game is played and even more, the kind of person who tends to be playing it. Not that the other reasons aren’t valid, but I think that has to be thrown in there.
Thinking back to last season, my foggy head seems to remember Sammy sitting on the bench for the final minutes (crunch time) of most games. I certainly remember holding my breath each time Sammy would outlet the ball after a rebound. You never knew when he’d just throw the outlet pass away with the least bit of pressure. I’m glad Sammy is out of here. It’s not like we need him in the next season or two in order to win a championship. We are not one piece away from greatness. We are rebuilding. You don’t keep malcontents. So Sac got rid of theirs and we ours.
So Sac got rid of theirs and we ours.
Good, so instead of one mal content with one year left on his deal the sixers now have two
1. One on the wrong side of 30 who won’t help this team when it matters (but has a longer deal)
2. One who has had multiple knee surgeries and multiple clashes with multiple people in Sacramento but is due a contract extension at the end of this season.
I can see how that’s better.
I’ve notcied something very interesting, most of the people who favor this trade
A. Forget that the coach was an idiot last year
B. Forget that defense matters
C. Ignore the fact that Hawes is a big fat bust who has 3 years in the league already and has done nothing to impress anyone
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
A) So now we’re a title contender? Because that’s the only way losing Sammy has any impact. He was GONE in 2011-2012.
B) Again, we were losing Sammy anyway. I’m not going to lament the loss of Sammy because I’m 100% sure he was gone regardless.
C) He’s 21 and has shown obvious offensive skill. At the 10th pick, I can’t call that a big fat bust, and I also think saying he’s done nothing to impress anyone is wrong as well.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 21, 2010 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
And yet now a capped out luxury tax fearing team has an extra 6 or so million on the cap for 11/12 so they could get under the cap this year and trade a supposed ‘malcontent’ (I wonder how many malcontents were in the locker room last year when the coach had his head up his ass)
I don’t care how the sixers try to spin it (and you try to spin it for them it seems) this was about 3 million dollars plain and simple – this was a short term move and next off season when the cap adjusts again and the sixers are over the tax again they’ll probably do something just as short sighted to stave off the luxury tax just one more season.
If they just bit the bullet and paid the tax this year they would have been free and clear of sam’s contract – even if they had to buy him out for all his ‘malcontentness’.
He’s 21 and has shown obvious offensive skill.
Yeah, the sixers need more guys who can score and do little else
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
And yet now a capped out luxury tax fearing team has an extra 6 or so million on the cap for 11/12 so they could get under the cap this year
First of all, the Sixers were going to get under the luxury tax this year. That was going to happen. You can piss and moan and wish they weren’t going to, but I prefer to live in reality. They’re not paying the tax for a .500 team. If Sammy Dalembert, who I’m 100% convinced was not going to be here beyond this year, is the biggest tax casualty of this team, I consider that a huge, huge win. 3 months ago we were talking about trading Iguodala for cap reasons. I’m ecstatic right now, honestly.
Second, the Sixers are not up against the tax in 2011-2012, they have a little bit of wiggle room, and do after this trade as well. Trading less flexibility in 2011-2012 for more flexibility in 2010-2011 is a good thing, in my book. Again, if that’s our luxury tax casualty, hallelujah.
I don’t care how the sixers try to spin it (and you try to spin it for them it seems)
Right. I’m just a mouthpiece. I love how whenever someone disagrees with you, they’re a mouthpiece and you’re right.
this was a short term move
This is the opposite of a short term move. Keeping Sammy to “try to better our defense and rebounding” while finding another way to get under the tax and having NOTHING at center beyond this year to try to scratch out 45 wins and keep the fan base happy when it does nothing beyond 2010-2011 seems short term to me.
Yeah, the sixers need more guys who can score and do little else
The Sixers need any piece they can get. Again, I don’t view anything on the frontcourt as long term. I don’t care that Thad can’t rebound, or that Speights can’t rebound, or that Brand forgot out to rebound, or that Jason Smith’s generally useless. They’re not long term. I don’t care about winning games next year. I care about pieces. I think Hawes has enough talent to be worth the “risk”.
Do I expect great things? No. Do I have a lot of faith his defense/rebounding will improve enough for him to reach his potential? Not particularly.
I don’t expect much from this trade. The main difference between myself and others is I also don’t see much risk, nor do I see much in the loss of Dalembert, nor do I care about fit and current team needs. I don’t care about next year.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 21, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
every time I read something like “this trade made the Sixers worse”, I shake my head a bit. It doesn’t matter. Sam was NOT coming back next year, period. Not unless the Sixers grossly overpaid. He was not part of the Sixers plan, because he didn’t want to be part of the Sixers plan. He was unhappy, has been for a while, and was going to leave. I neither believe the Sixers made themselves better last week, nor care.
I’m also not terribly upset the Sixers didn’t wait until the trade deadline to move Sam, as as you showed, that’s not necessarily guaranteed to pull in a large haul.
In my mind, the Sixers did this deal to take a chance on Hawes and hope he reaches his potential, as he’s clearly skilled offensively. They did so without giving up any piece that was in their long term plan, and did so without taking on a contract longer than 2 years. I can’t get incredibly pissed off about this deal.
To me, the key with Hawes is strength training. He has some clear skill, including post skill, that he’s not able to fully utilize because of a lack of lower body strength, which also impacts his post defense and defensive rebounding. If he can add lower body strength, I think it’s possible he becomes an average defender and rebounder, and I think the Sixers could have gotten a nice piece for cheap.
I don’t care about the downgrade defensively, because Sammy was gone. I don’t care about his fit with other members of the frontcourt, because I’m not married to any of them. Who we ARE married to, Hawes fits in well with (Jrue, Iguodala and Turner, all of whom need the floor spacing to drive, and Turner and Holiday who should be good pick and pop players), and they all provide rebounding that not all teams get from their guards.
Easy guys, don’t jump off the bridge. Yes, the Sixers got worse this year. But they didn’t lose anything they had in their plans for the future. It’s a medium reward, low risk move.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 21, 2010 8:22 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
BTW I don’t know if this was a reponse to me …
every time I read something like "this trade made the Sixers worse", I shake my head a bit.
… but I meant worse next year, if that wasn’t clear.
I shake my head at anyone who thinks the sixers will be better next year without a big man who can play defense
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
The sixers have no big men who play defense now – period
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions
They’ll still be better than last year (unless they trade Iguodala). Even if that means 28 wins instead of 27.
So your assertion is that the sixers will be a better team with Spence Hawes as the starting center than Sam Dalembert…because Hawes is such a good defender and rebounder that he brings MORE of a threat to the defensive end?
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
And winning more games next year isn’t necessarily a good thing, as long as there’s development and re-building taking place.
A. Tell me where i ever said winning games matters
B. I’m not sure how a rookie a bust and a whiny 30 year old makes up for one of the better defensive centers in the league
C. Again, let’s see what Petrie gets for Sam (if anything) at the deadline, if anyone here thinks that Stefanski is a better GM than Petrie, that’s fine, but i have oceanfront property in nevada to sell you and no nuke to use to create a new west coast.
Collins is better than jordan – but as for the rest of it – whatever – it’s a bad trade – it’s a stupid trade – it’s short sighted and about saving 3 million dollars
But on the plus side, Stefanski now has two unrestricted free agents he can over pay next off season – so that’s cool
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
So your assertion is that the sixers will be a better team with Spence Hawes as the starting center than Sam Dalembert
i…don’t….care….about….this…year
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 21, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m with Magee on this one. We will be worse if we go into the season with the bigs we have on the roster.
You cannot assume that Speights, Smith or Hawes can give them anywhere near the defensive presence that Sam did.
I’m with Magee on this one
who are you and what have you done with our ricko?!?!?!?!
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Jun 21, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
As long as you mention the word “Big” or “Center” ricko will follow you to death
by prideoux on Jun 21, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
The complete ‘grade’ on this trade can’t really be calculated until its seen what the kings get for (if anything) dalembert at the trade deadline
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:25 AM PDT reply actions
I also think it’s a flaw if the sixers had dismissed Sam as part of the future without trying to negotiate a reasonable extension…
Might as well trade Iguodala now as well since if the goal seems to be getting worse defensively while maximizing offensive fiirepower.
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 8:30 AM PDT reply actions
In the first place this trade does make basketball sense. Sam Dalembert is not a top 5 player at his position or even a top 10, and he never will be. Sam is a back-up Center and was paid way too much for what he produced. having a player of llimited productivity taking up that much salary precludes a team from competing for a championship, since you can’t pay the additional talent what they demand under the salary cap.
Secondly, we are not rebuilding. Rebuilding implies that you already had something worth preserving or renewing. We are still trying to build a team using the players on the roster, and attempting to add better pieces.
It only doesn’t make basketball sense if we don’t replace Sam with someone better. And that’s only on a short-term basis. Eventually, we’ll find a better Center than Sam. I don’t think that anyone would think Hawes is an improvement, but he does have more upside. Whatever Sam’s potential was, I think we saw it this season, not much of a loss!
As I see it, we still need a real center and I’m pretty sure Doug Collins sees it the same way. Speights and Brand were effective against other’s 2nd teams but that’s not much to rely on. Smith and Speights were still to weak to bang inside last season, just as Hawes is. Who knows how they will come in to the next season or if they will be effective in the post.
This is why I’m still leaning towards the Sixers selecting a big man. You cannot rely on anything the Sixers say or do, until something actually happens. I think all the Turner talk is just to get other teams that want him to come to the Sixers with a deal for the Pick. Minn., with the 4th pick seems ideal, as we could swap picks, get Cousins and another player and possibly get rid of Brand.
Other teams don’t want Brand or his contract, but the Sixers aren’t desperate. They have the 2nd pick and will be assured of getting who they want. It’s only if they can trade down and still get that player that they will act. Still it makes perfect sense for they to try to extract more from other teams if they can.
If we don’t get another center, we will most likely be a lottery team next season. I think Collins knows this and will therefore do what he can to get one.
No, Only if we draft one and he turns out to be able to play the Center/Power Forward position effectively do we have the chance to be in the playoffs. And I mean like a 20 and 10 player with 2-3 blocks per game.
And even if we do that, that gives us one decent big, if Speghts or Smith doesn’t come through we’re not winning anyway.
Do you know how many players there are in the NBA that averaged 20 and 10 with 2-3 blocks last season? Zero. I think you need to lower your bigman expectations just a tad.
This is where luck comes in, like getting the 2nd pick in the draft. It is a fact of life that good quality big men are hard to find. The fact that no-one got 20 and 10 with 2-4 blocks last season suggests that there aren’t any good ones in the NBA right now!
The ones that were good enough in the past, produced those numbers, but no longer do. That includes Shaq, Duncan and Garnett.
I just read an article talking about Favors and how he is the best athlete in the draft. And one with an enormous upside. One scout said he’s be a monster in the NBA for years.
Unlike the other bigs we have, Favors already has an NBA body. And, he ’s only 18!
I just read an article talking about Favors and how he is the best athlete in the draft. And one with an enormous upside. One scout said he’s be a monster in the NBA for years.
Same things were said in the past about Michael Beasley, Tyrus Thomas, Marvin Williams, Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin… blah blah blah.
I’m not saying Favors will flop but there is a huge risk with taking a high upside big man, especially one that did not produce in college. He is far from the sure thing you think he is and would have a hard time finding playing time in his first season among the Sixers’ other big men.
dont for get kwame brown and
dont for get kwame brown and darko same was said about them at and before draft time
by killacaravagio on Jun 21, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
A very valid point. Lots of bigs come out highly touted and turn out to be busts. But (and this is the point) I think you have to try and select players like Favors when you get the opportunity. Even though he’s young, he did get the McDonald’s all American award and another one, usually the guys who get these awards aren’t busts.
But some of these names you mentioned, I could tell right away they weren’t elite players. Beasly, Thomas, Williams, Chandler are all role players, bigs with limitations in what they can do.
Favors is an athlete. His physical presence doesn’t guarantee he will be a great NBA center. But if he wasn’t a superb athlete he wouldn’t have such an upside. Scouts can envision him becoming a dominant NBA center/PF, the type that can establish position in the post and be strong enough to not be pushed out.
You all know I’m big on Speights, but his biggest problem is he doesn’t have the strength to establish position inside. I have hopes that he will develop this as he gets older, but Favors already appears to be strong enough. That makes him worth taking a chance on.
please admit you’ve never seen Favors play in a full game, whether it be high school or college.
"I admire his competitiveness. As much as I admire it, I thought that he was trying too hard."- Eddie Jordan
"Fit"
Explain to me how Hawes doesn’t potential fit with the Jrue/Turner/Iguodala core? I understand how he doesn’t fit with the rest of the frontcourt, and how there’s not currently enough defense or rebounding. I get that. I don’t care, but I get that. But if I’m looking for the future, I want to know how he fits with the 3 people on this team I actually care about for the future.
Not saying he will work out, but if he becomes a passable defender and rebounder, I think his skillset can fit with the core. I don’t consider that all that high of a probability, but I see at least some potential benefit.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
btw, I apologize in advance for being a paid member of the Sixers PR team.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 21, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written with regard to this Derek. Hawes should be able to develop into at least a back-up center in the NBA. He’s a better fit salary wise for what he can bring, and is therefore a better value than Sam.
I think Doug is going to be doing a lot of teaching big men how to play the game the right way.
smith
this is my first post on here and im sure no one will agree but
I probably watched 80/82 games last year and up until this year everyone had reasonable expectations for jason smith. However, this year he barely had playing time and when he did he made a few mistakes. I think he had a bit of rust coming off his surgery and never got normal playing time or understood rotation. When he was out there he didnt expect to get the ball and just hustled tryin to get rebounds and blocks (pad some stats). I think he could be a viable option as a center with his height, similar skillset to hawes and i think he plays ok defense. Just think he was written off too soon. People tend to play pretty well in contract years too.
Also, does Hawes being in his contract year scare anyone? I’m worried they will resign Thad and Hawes to a semi large deal and end up overpaying them.
I’m pretty sure they’ll end up over paying them both – and stefanski still won’t lose his job.
After the season speights and thad had – what makes you think they have much trade value? (serious question, I really don’t believe their trade value can get much worse and rushing them away in the off season is a bad idea)
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I would say you’re right about keeping Speights as he’s not in his contract year yet and we can see what he turns out to be. Thad on the other hand, I just don’t know. It’s so hard to evaluate a guy’s future after a season under Eddie Jordan. Quite the pickle actually. My reason for thinking these guy’s have value are that there are certain GM’s and Coaches who need or think they need instant offense off the bench. Lou and Speights fit this profile well, skilled offensively but not too much else. If only Thad/Hawes had a few years left on their rookie contracts to evaluate them.
thad and mo
why has everyone gave up on these guys?
not one player had a improved year last year under eddie jordan who couldnt have made a strong or consistant rotation even if he was coachin the olympic team….
people forget before spieghts went down he was 14ppg and 7rpg, had a monster game and shat all over dwight howard (all be they did trash us) but those are good numbers off the bench…after he got back, brand remembered how to play basketball for a little streak, speights lost time, then the rotation got turned into, i dont kno if u even call it a rotation, shit. speights got buried at the bottom of the bench, got a small injury, put his head down and gave up on the season….i think hes gonna come back really strong and have a very solid year especially wit a gapping whole at center and now some more young competition in hawes to hopefully motivate him.
speights is not useless to say the least. as for young, he would start at power forward, have a good game, then get benched for a few games, struggle, then start at small forward and never got a rhythem at all. he finally got hurt and never returned and i honestly dont blame him. forget how he went on that ridiculous tear and become the sixers best player in 08/09 before spraining his ankle, missing the last 5 games (they went 0-5),? from march 3rd till he was injured on march 31st he averaged 22.7 ppg…
all be the played terrible against orlando but if u look at his shooting percentage for that series ull see like a 12-15% drop off so he did struggle but just for havin a bad season full of weird lineups, inconsistant time, and a coach who couldnt successfully coach the pee wee league down my block, that means we give up on them? i guess that makes sense…..
only ONE player had a good season and it was more of a great second half than a whole good season and that was jrue….i see speights comin back really strong but as for thad, theres alot of guys at his position so itll be a little hard but even if he dont produce the best numbers, it isnt because hes useless. i just dont understand how were ready to throw away two 22 year olds who have one bad season when everyone else did too
he had a good game against dwight howard (didn’t roy hibbert do that too?) one game means nothing
Whomever the coach was last year, Speights showed no interest in the following from the moment the season starter
A. Passing
B. Rebounding except for his own misses to put em back up
C. Playing defense
Those aren’t Jordans fault
Speights is seen as lazy and lacking a work ethic but two folk at IMG who worked with him a bit, and his own GM
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
No one wanted to play for Jordan, he managed to alienate everyone on the team.
All of this is Jordan’s fault, who was Speights supposed to pass to? As though someone else ont he team was a better shot! How can he be expected to battle for rebounds when he isn’t strong enough to establish position? On defense, bigs need more training than anything else, Jordan was incapable of giving Speights what he needed.
This isn’t to dispute that he has his faults, but Jordan was the root cause of everything bad last season. This season, it will all be on the players, ’cause in Doug I Trust!
but Jordan was the root cause of everything bad last season.
He was terrible no doubt
But speights came into camp not improving his game – he got fat when he went on the DL
Those things are on speights
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this as well. Young players, especially those who come out early need a lot of coaching and training, of which they got none last season. Without a set rotation or constant minutes, you make even veteran players uncomfortable, let alone teenagers who aren’t sure of where they stand.
A season with Doug will do all of these players good. My biggest fear is that the moron we had as a coach last season would ruin the players, and that we’d be in a situation where we were unsure about our first-round picks over the past few seasons.
Doug will soon realize who can play and who can’t, which positions are best for them and which ones play well together and compliment each other’s strengths. But you have to give these young players a chance before you write them off.
Man these sound eerily like excuses made for Sam Dalembert early in his career when he never improved in even the most fundamental aspects of basketball in the off season.
Coaching is not responsible for a poor work ethic, lack of dedication, or off season work (or balooning like a kid at fat camp when you’re injured)
Speights is the new Sam.
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
The Sixers put Speights on their summer roster (with the Nets last season) How much coaching did he get or would have been able to put into practice? In the preseason Speights put up some monster numbers- say whatever else you want to, this kid can score and has a nice outside shot.
Everyone gets a little fat when they can’t run or workout as a result of injury. And expecting a kid to act like a seasoned pro is a little silly.
Let’s see how he shows up this season. If I was him, I’d be very energized by the hiring of Collins and the dismissal of Dalembert. If he turns out to be the new Sam, I’ll be very unhappy. He has a lot of work to do on the defensive end, and he better be ready for Collins.
More excuses for speights, much like the excuses were made for sam
Players aren’t responsible on their own to get better to improve the flaws in their game that are fundamental to basketball?
That’s the differences between super stars and average or below average players who waste talent – dedication and work ethic
Speights has shown none (and it’s been reaffirmed by numerous people including his GM – but you ignore that fact) – but you like him – you don’t want it to be his fault.
I liked him when he was drafted, but so far he’s been a disappointment from year one to year two in ways that had NOTHING to do with eddie Jordan
Blaming eddie jordan for everything is too easy, and lazy
by jemagee on Jun 21, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
im not gonna sit here and tell u hes got a good work ethic but i am sayin its crazy to just give up on him like that and hes still only 22
I didn’t say give up on him did i? I said he’s so far shown squat to get people excited that he’ll be more than a bench guy ho you bring in when you need points
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Great trade for the 76ers.. Dalembert has been a waste of space for several years. He has lost a lot of his defensive ability and he is completely useless on offensively. Hawes is 22 years old and still developing, Sammy is 29(allegedly) and on his way down. He has always been overrated, comparing Dalembert to Camby is absurd. Sammy is big but never had much talent. Camby was the best defender in the league(multiple time defensive player of the year) and he still put up more offense than Sammy not to mention an extra 3 or 4 boards per game. Hawes fits with all the young players on the team. Honestly, I would have made that trade straight up even without throwing in Nocioni. Sixers are gonna be making some noise in the next couple years.,
>> Hawes fits with all the young players on the team. <<
Yes. Like most of the young players on this team, Hawes is either unwilling or incapable of playing defense or rebounding. You are correct, he is a perfect fit :)
Who said this team has no identity? They have a very clear identity…cushiony-soft, no defense at all, getting killed on the boards. At least the frontcourt players. Iguodala is a good defender when he wants to be, and Jrue puts out effort on that end, but I did read a statistically-based piece on here a while ago (it was during the season) that seemed to point out that Jrue was a very overrated defender. I am not much of a stat maven, but the person seemed pretty convinced.
There also seems to be a presumption that Turner is a good defender. I haven’t watched enough of him to know one way or the other.
Yes. Like most of the young players on this team, Hawes is either unwilling or incapable of playing defense or rebounding. You are correct, he is a perfect fit :)
The young players on this team I consider of relevance all have a great willingness to defend.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Jun 22, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
So there’s Jrue and? (is Andre still young?)
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Lack of League Pass and sixers national games – i haven’t seen much meeks
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
If he is consistently pesky and hits a decent percentage his 3s off the bench, he is a marked improvement from Willie Green. Possibly even, dare I say it, a useful bench player? Turner is going to have to rest sometimes.
Unfortunately, I see Lou taking most of Meeks’ minutes, which is a shame because I think with experience, Freek-A-Meek (for you tanner) can be a better defending Lou. Jodie’s height isn’t too terrible 6’4’’ as opposed to Lou, 6’1’’. If he can play defense at a decent level, and invariably stretch the floor, he has a place on this team.
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