Sixers Off-Season '10: Crowded Depth Chart; More trades?
by Jordan Sams on Jun 20, 2010 12:43 PM PDT
in Future Stuff
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PrintI intended for this exercise to help me write another story, but decided to turn it into its own post. I was attempting to figure out who would play where and for how many minutes next year, assuming the roster stays the same and Evan Turner is the draft pick. I came to the conclusion that either a) there are more trades to come or b) the Sixers are going to have some very unhappy players on their hands. Follow the jump to see the rough draft of my depth chart.
Iguodala - 39 minutes
Holiday - 35 minutes
Turner - 35 minutes
Brand - 32 minutes
Hawes - 29 minutes
Williams - 22 minutes
Nocioni - 17 minutes
Speights - 16 minutes
Thad - 15 minutes
-------------------------
PG - Holiday (35), Williams (8), Turner (5)
SG - Turner (20), Iguodala (14), Williams (14)
SF - Iguodala (25), Nocioni (13), Turner (10)
PF - Brand (25), Thad (15), Speights (4), Nocioni (4)
C - Hawes (29), Speights (12), Brand (7)
What do you guys think? Who needs more minutes? Less minutes? No Jodie Meeks? No Willie Green?! Here are a few options to clear things up:
- Completely bench Nocioni.
- Deduct a combination of Elton, Hawes, Speights, and Williams minutes.
- Package 2-3 players from this group (Williams, Nocioni, Thad, Speights, Hawes) for a young stud and/or top 15 pick.
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Not an impossible scenario either … unless you have Ed Stefanski as your GM. No way he’s savvy enough to pull it off. Most fans will riot if they pass on ET.
by Jordan Sams on Jun 20, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t mind going ET at 2, then Whiteside/Udoh/Alabi/Seraphin/Patterson/Sanders in the teens. That would be just as nice.
by Michael Levin on Jun 20, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I would happily sacrifice 2-3 players for a pick to take Whiteside. If we are going the rebuild route, we might as well go in whole hog.
WORLD CUP 2010!!! USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!
by chillicothe20 on Jun 20, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do ppl love Whiteside so much? I understand the 5.5 BPG but did we not just get rid of a guy who only plays D? I understand that Whiteside’s numbers are better than Sammy’s were in college but Sammy was in the Big East. Whiteside played for Marshall and put up his strong defensive games against poor opponents, except for Memphis (for example only 3 blocks @ UNC while struggling on offense or 2 blocks v. WVU). I see Whiteside as a long term back-up to play D on a good team or a starter (and just barely) on a bad team.
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
I am just not sold on a kid who puts up numbers as a big on a low level team. The height advantage is such a big difference, as compared to Guards and SFs who if can shoot or drive they can shoot or drive to the rim.
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
Conference USA isn’t exactly the Big South. CUSA is actually right behind the Mountain West and above the A10 in terms of basketball budget. Whiteside did have to play against draft prospects such as Jerome Jordan and Derrick Caracter.
There’s reasons to dislike Whiteside. For one he’s extremely raw despite being old for his class. Another is his supposed attitude and work ethic problems. The competition he played against shouldn’t be one of the reasons.
Yea you are right that league is good and strong at the top and there are some good players in the league, especially Caracter. I am just fearful of bigs who have not had to bang in the post on a consistent basis. Even Jordan is another raw player that is a lanky not a big body.
As I said I see him as a backup/defensive guy or a starter on some teams that lack bigs. Not all players can be starters or stars, if you think that 60 players are drafted each year including a bunch of projects with some being success stories and some crashing and burning!
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
I don’t consider Jordan very Raw. I just consider him not very good. On any half decent team, he is a backup.
Whiteside has beautiful upside….maybe more than any big in this draft. He also has a scary downside.
While many of the bigs in this draft need to add strength in the post and size on their frames, Whiteside is dead last in the entire draft in that department. He has to add a ton of strength, a bit of quickness, and a ton of basketball IQ. Thus, he has huge project written all over him. Why draft that when you can possibly draft Aldrich outside the top 10?
Initially, I liked Whiteside’s upside too. But I think I’ve come to my senses. Aldrich looks like he can at least make a strong contribution as a top 3 4/5 rotation player on a championship caliber team. Whiteside is likely years away from deserving anything more than spot minutes. I might rather even draft Larry Sanders than Whiteside. He doesn’t have nearly as much upside as a shot blocker, but he can at least play basketball and contribute, and still has some upside as a player. If Sanders adds 20lbs of muscle(and he has the frame to do it) his right handed half hook in the post while be very difficult for many PF’s in this league to defend.
Whiteside has zero post game at this point in time.
Good Post
hey, your first scenerio with minutes is probably a good estimate, barring any trades. Dont see Collins totally benching Nocioni. Do you have any good info on Babbitt and George? Never seen them so I dont know anything about them to comment. My secret wish is taht they get turner at the 2 spot in the draft, and trade iggy to get johnson and another guy. Have to be more read into babbitt andd george thou. Peace.
I would love us to package those players to Golden State or Detroit to allow us to have a shot at Cousins and then still draft Turner at 2.
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
Agreed, which is why I would love some idiotic team agreeing to it.
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
by fantasybc88 on Jun 21, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Either Thad or Speights needs to go!
On the last discussion, I mentioned that there were too many PF’s with our current roster, assuming Thad is a 4 and Brand remains with the team. There just isn’t enough minutes for all these players, unless injuries occur or some players are inactive. Evan Turner will be the selection, but can the Sixers move either Thad or Speights for another pick on draft night? In my opinion, Speights is the future at the PF position for the team, I just do not now where Thad fits at this time. Not sure if we could get a first round pick for him, especially after last season’s struggles. I am all over Whiteside if a trade can be made. Yes, a very raw player, but has that shot blocking ability that this team lacks with Daly out west. No need to rush his development and hopefully would become our new starting Center in three seasons.
Speights can play C and I wouldn’t be surprised if Speights started over Hawes if Brand starts at PF which now that Sammy has been traded I think he will.
Nocioni should be an reserve player for either injury or foul trouble.
I really don’t think he should get more than 2 or 3 minutes unless necessary.
On another note, I’m actually going to author a 3 part Fanpost/Discussion. Since I tend to write and edit anything I write like three or four times it’ll probably take me a few days to do each but before I begin it what do you think about this idea? And if you think I should expand my view a little more, what do you think I should do to do that? Here’s an excerpt:
“The post-Iverson era has been tumultuous at best. It has been marked with a lot of indecision with management, coaching and player/personnel. While it is always easy to blame a single person for these past few years, it is better to look at the situation as an aggregation of mistakes by not just a few people but the organization as a whole; mistakes that we are still paying for currently. The most obvious issues we deal with are 1. Lack of Cap Room 2. Lack of players (or star power to some) 3. Coaching. There are probably more issues, and maybe some will be hit upon with the look at each, but I know I will miss a few and I’ll leave you, the readers, to ruminate on them (and possibly present them). Since my take on the state of our team is due to a tri-fold, I’ll take each issue as a separate topic of discussion. With each topic I’ll not only highlight some moves that could have been taken to either A) Prevent said mistake B) Correct said mistake or C) Mitigate or minimize the the effect of said mistake.”
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
rotation
I see something like this if everyone is healthy. More minutes to the bench when Brand is hurt.. Its not a horrible looking roster. Definitely built for the future.
Holiday 30 (30 PG)
Turner 32 (32 SG)
Iguodala 34 (34 SF)
Brand 25 (13 PF / 12 C)
Dalembert 25 (25 C)
Speights 26 (20 PF / 6 C)
Williams 26 (18 PG / 8 SG)
Young 26 (11 SF / 15 PF)
Meeks 5 (5 SG)
Kapono 3 (3 SF)
Smith 5 (5 C)
Green 3 (3 SG)
by Scott Cashin on Jun 20, 2010 7:55 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Ballsy move giving 25 minutes to Dalembert.
by Michael Levin on Jun 20, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
is this breaking news that hawes, nocioni, or sammy will fail a physical? now that’s insider info
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Jun 20, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty good rotation I think EXCEPT I think Williams needs less minutes and Meeks more. I also would hope that Meeks ultimately gets more than Williams most games (we need to know if Meeks is worth keeping). Obviously, if Meeks or Williams are outstanding, then, all bets are off.
My happiest part of your rotation is no Green in the rotation! Awesome! I am sure he will get a little burn from time to time which is fine.
Willie Green???
Do you think Willie will decide not to extend his contract with the 76ers if Turner is our pick???
I just read a recap of a interview Stefanski did in Philly on NBC10 I think and he was talking about how Thad is going to play both the 3 and 4 mainly the 4 and Brand will play both the 4 and the 5, I was thinking that the trade for Hawes was to get another big guy to play alongside Brand but after reading that recap I wonder if Collins might still go with Thad starting at the 4 and Brand at the 5.
Iguodala
I’m surprised that no one on this post has suggested or even entertained the idea of trading Andre Iguodala. Look, I know he is supposed to be developing into the face of the franchise and is still a freakish athlete, but the fact is he quit on this team last year, he gave up on being the top-tier defender he was in 2006 and he has never developed into the clutch scorer this team desperately needed last season.
I love to watch Iguodala, but he and Thaddeus are identical players, and Young destroyed his trade value by having such a setback year in his development last season. Iguodala is the guy to move in order to make room on this roster and completely change the look of this team, which let’s face it, needs to happen.
Let me say this first, Evan Turner must be the pick at 2. For Philadelphia, for Ed Stefanski, for Doug Collins this must be the pick. Unless the Sixers enjoy an empty Wachovia Center to play in. That being said, Minnesota has given some thought to taking Iguodala and someone else for the fourth pick in this draft. That means potentially Wesley Johnson is there. Johnson, a three who is extremely athletic and can shoot the three much better than Iguodala. If you don’t like Johnson at this pick, surely DeMarcus Cousins will be available. He’s high risk because his work ethic has been questioned but he’s extremely high-reward and one of the closest things to a center in this draft besides Cole Aldrich who will not be taken top ten.
I know I’m most likely blowing smoke and this would not happen because the sixers are still sold on Iguodala but after the season they had last year, I so no reason that any player should be completely safe from a trade, and for me that player should be Andre Iguodala.
Iguodala and Thaddeus couldn’t be any different as basketball players of similar height.
by Michael Levin on Jun 20, 2010 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions
My Heat Fanboy impulse is impulsing.
Would you guys be willing to do a draft day trade if we happen to draft Alabi? (IMO, Alabi seems to be the pick for the Heat at #18). We could package Beasley, Cook or Jones (or all of them, for that matter) for a big like Hawes or Speights and some cheap bench players.
How are Iguodala and Young completely different players? Sure, Iguodala can pass better but neither can shoot very well, they are equal defenders and with Iguodala’s recent defense they aren’t much different in that respect.
But you have to accept that when they are both on the floor together it doesn’t work. Andre Iguodala is not a two gaurd! Thaddeus Young is not a power forward! No matter how hard you try to force those square pegs into round holes, they will not fit. They are a couple of small forwards, which makes one expendable. I obviously recognize that Iguodala is a far superior talent, but that’s why he might be the one to trade, because his value is much higher.
To say the two are completely different is foolish. There’s a reason the sixers can’t shoot the ball when they are both on the floor.
He was a better defender. But over the past two years he’s proven he no longer cares about defense. Not to mention the biggest similarity I was pointing out that nobody seems to acknowledge is that they are both small forwards who can’t play at the same time. I agree Iguodala is better, but when the guys quits on a team halfway through a season and considers himself above other guys in the lineup I don’t understand why sixers fans are still so high on him. You guys did watch last season right? No player should be safe on this team, and there wasn’t this much love for Iguodala when there was a chance to move him at the deadline last year, why have things changed?
We all agree either Young or Iguodala is the prime piece to be moved, so why not Iguodala, the guy with more trade value who won’t fit into the new team Doug Collins is trying to build as seemlessly as say Young, Nocioni, even Wes Johnson if that were possible, which it won’t be because Ed Stefanski would never move Iguodala and Minnesota doesn’t seem as high on Iguodala any longer.
and there wasn’t this much love for Iguodala when there was a chance to move him at the deadline last year, why have things changed?
You obviously haven’t been at this blog for very long.
No one is arguing against trading Iguodala in a deal for a top 6 pick. The statement that Thaddeus and Iguodala are identical players is completely incorrect though.
Nocioni of course for his toughness, but I recognize he’s not you’re small forward of the future. He’s just a guy sixers fans will like because he’s going to instill a toughness into the young team.
No one commented about trading Iguodala in this thread, I said that in my first post?
And I’ll admit, identical players is a bad phrase to use, but so is completely different. I put Young and Iguodala in the same category because they are both poor shooting smallf forwards, and they are small forwards, not matter what anyone says. I get it, Iguodala is a much better passer and ball handler than Young, but that isn’t going to matter much once Turner is the shooting gaurd. I’m telling you, you are going to want the ball in Turner’s hand down the stretch, because he will be a better passer and ball handler than Iguodala. That leaves Andre as the poor shooting small forward on the wing. That sounds an awful lot like Thaddeus Young to me.
p.s. Sorry about the reply button.
One person’s passing ability does not make another player’s passing ability useless. Does drafting Turner mean we should trade Jrue too? I mean when you take away passing, rebounding, and defense Lou and Jrue are basically the same player.
no, I agree with that, but I guess I just don’t see what makes Iguodala so much more hands-off than Thaddeus other than the fact that he is a clutch player who takes the ballhandling pressure off of Jrue. Two players need to be able to handle the ball, not three.
And what really gets me is the fact that Iguodala had to opportunity to really set himself apart from Thaddeus by becoming the premiere defender he was surely going to be before 2007, and the fact that the sixers have tried and tried to make him and Thaddeus work on the floor together but they don’t. Rebounding and defense and passing are important but when both players can shoot, that’s a glaring similarity to me.
Two players need to be able to handle the ball, not three.
What? Why? What is the downside to having 3 or more good passers on the court as opposed to two?
And what really gets me is the fact that Iguodala had to opportunity to really set himself apart from Thaddeus by becoming the premiere defender he was surely going to be before 2007
I can’t see the link to the article? If it’s about defense I do want to read it. I don’t doubt he could get back to being the all-NBA defender he was, but it’s almost like he has put that aside for trying to be the go-to offensive player.
I like this article by Stephen A. because I agree that he could be so good as a defender I haven’t said otherwise, it just doesn’t seem like he cares about that any longer:
I’m not saying three ball handlers is a negative, but Iguodala’s playing style is for this team I think. His extra baggage from last year outweighs his skills for me. That’s I guess my difference between Thad and him; Young is quiet and a good team player whereas Andre is not, and so I think you’re not really losing much between Thad and Andre.
This article says my thoughts exactly:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20100321_Inside_the_Sixers___Iguodala_s_game_going_way_of_Sixers_-_down.html#axzz0rWOVxcvK
Gah, I hate SBNation’s html sometimes.
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=649
Agreed, I’m new to this and I’m already frustrated!
I would be interested if you found those same stats from last season. Again, I have no doubt of what he can do defensively, but it just seems like he doesn’t care about that anymore. I don’t like the idea of having that attitude on a team where Evan Turner (hopefully) will step in, and where Jrue is on his way to being one of the best on-ball defensive point gaurds in the league.
I just hope that, like in the article I posted, Doug Collins will get the best of out of Iguodala. If he can do that, than I take back my comments about him and Thad being so similar (other than the fact that they are both poor shooting small fowards, that won’t change).
Thad Young was the 12th overall pick two years ago after playing 1 year of college ball. He was considered a developmental player who would take a couple of years to start producing… He is still only 22 years old, still younger than many of this years draft picks. He scored 13.8 PPG last year.. As a matter of fact he outscored Brand each of the last 2 years while playing less minutes. Thad is going to continue to improve into a bigtime player and you people want to give him away for nothing or bench him. He will basically split minutes with Brand early this year until he takes over the starting PF spot for good by midyear… Thad is the future PF for the sixers.
As for Speights he is a similar story, he is a young developmental player who should start to pop this year. He has had good production considering very limited minutes and injury problems. Speights had 8.6PPG and 4.1RPG in 16 minutes last year that translates to near all-star stats for a full games work. We are sitting with a bunch of good young developing players who will are ready to become big players, to try and trade them for draft picks would be idiotic. We are not getting ready to rebuild, we have been rebuiling for several years and the results are coming. Turner will hopefully be the final piece to the puzzle.
Jrue is 20,Turner 21, thad 22, Hawes 22, Speights and williams 23, and Iggy 26. Thats 7 starters or high reserve players 26 and under. Don’t panic people this team is gonna win a lot of games for a long time.
Your definition of high reserve seems to equate with mediocrity
Jrue and Andre now are the only pieces I care if they stay on the roster long term – Sam was the 3rd
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow… I can’t understand why Thaddeus Young isn’t one of the pieces you’d want us to keep. The kid’s still very young and the poor coaching and player rotations from E Jordan should be taken into account.
Yeah, the eddie jordan excuse doesn’t hold water for his crap defending or rebounding at his position that was NOT jsut last year.
The Eddie Jordan is a bad coach doesn’t excuse poor defensive effort or reboudning that Young has shown consistently. He’s a bench player, BFD, to me.
Not to mention that he was ‘confused’ earlier in the year because the plays were too hard for him to remember.
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I definitely see Eddie Jordan as the reason Young didn’t show much on defense last year. Why work hard for Eddie Jordan on defense when all he cared about is scoring and making sure no player talked ill about the Princeton Offense.
And the excuses for little to no defense or rebounding the previous 2 seasons? Were those mo cheeks and Tony Dileos fault?
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
A 19 year old 20 year old (happy birthday Thaddeus… June 21st) with a single college season under his belt, signed to a professional team with a turnstile erected smack dab in front of the Head coach’s office. That’s the reason you give Young a chance. Especially now that we have a coach that teaches the game.
And sam picked up the game late or was drafted late.
I’m sorry, but once you get to the NBA, you are judged on your performance.
Thads performance defensively/reboundingly (my word) has been poor for 3 straight seasons, regardless of coach.
Again, excuses were made for Sam for years, and now it seems like Thad and Speights are the new ‘excused’ players for lack of development.
If the sixers fans are lucky, they’ll have a playoff series where the team gets whacked but they put up good numbers (because the other team ignores them) and they can get long term extensions and people can then bemoan about how bad their contract is.
If we’re really lucky, maybe hawes can do it too
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
3 years in the NBA
that’s what’s relevant right now, 3 years in the NBA, poor defense, poor rebounding, things that can be improved regardless of who the coach is and what the offensive sets are
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Let’s wait until the coming season is over and done with, then we’ll see the results of a year with Doug Collins working with Thaddeus Young. One of us can gloat about being right. I say this is Young’s coming out year. What say you?
I’d tell you but it seems I’m not allowed to answer you
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I know I posted something on this thread that is no longer visible. Either that or I’m delusional from having the second pick in this years draft.
It was something to the effect of, most of the team took a step backwards last season so it probably is Eddie Jordan’s fault.
Iguodala was Iguodala
Sam was better (sam is one of the best rebounders in the league folks)
ANd Jrue grew even with Jordan as the coach.
Coincidentally they’re the only 3 players I figure would be worth keeping long term…
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Glad you wised up about Jrue. I remember just before the draft last year you beat me up for wanting Holiday as our pick. I told you how the PA announcer would have fun with his name. So I was wrong that Madonna’s song "Holiday’ still hasn’t been used for Jrue. But I am kind of chuffed to have wanted Holiday from the jump while you were pumped up on … hell I don’t remember who you were pumped up on but my guy got picked (puts nose in air).
Do you have linkage to me ‘beating you up’ about Holiday? I don’t remember caring who the sixers drafted or paying enough attention to know who would be worth drafting at that pick?
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I am contrite
It seems it was TAKAMB that hassled me on the pick, not you.
http://www.libertyballers.com/2009/5/25/885712/monday-mocks-31-days#comments
I kind of figured it wasn’t me – it’s not often I care about who the sixers draft
I wanted Iguodala and Speights in the past 10 years – the rest of the time I never really have a preference….because there are people who know more than I do posting here (well posting online at least)…and the draft is a crap shoot anyway.
I remember a lot of people wanting ty lawson – they seem to have vanished
by jemagee on Jun 22, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn’t vanish. Signing Elton Brand and selecting Jrue over Lawson indicated going in two different directions, and not having a plan for contending any time now or in the future.
Clearly Jrue was better than I thought, but the philosophy of the pick was flawed.
by Michael Levin on Jun 22, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The philosophy of the pick was pick the best player available…
You think the philosophy is flawed, I perceive your perception of the philosophy as flawed
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Well then it seems we’ve reached an impasse.
by Michael Levin on Jun 24, 2010 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Being perennially wrong is one of my many talents. My apologies if you felt hassled.
by Michael Levin on Jun 22, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
No need to apologize. I wouldn’t have brought up the subject except that I thought John was the culprit. I apologize for gloating about the whole thing.
Would you have gloated if you didn’t think I was the culprit, cause than it’s worse than ‘just gloating’ and a sign of a disase you might want to have looked at ;)
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
The minutes distribution were pretty solid. I think Ideally with this roster Brand should spend on average half his minutes at the 4 and half at the 5 while only averaging 25 min/game(He clearly burns out and loses some lift in his legs when he averages more than that while playing with max effort on D….and we need max defensive effort from him…that is where his value lies to this roster first and foremost).
Thad should start at the 4 and Brand should come off the bench if they are going to be a higher scoring team. In this scenario, Thad would likely lead the team in scoring playing 30+ minutes as an undersized 4.
Brand should start at the 4, and Thad should be more of a 3/4 energy guy off the bench who occasionally has scoring pop if they decide instead to win more with defense.
Either way, the record would probably be identical. The big difference between the two scenarios is Thad’s eventual value in a trade. If he is starting at the 4 and averaging 20ppg shooting solid percentages while the sixers win more than they lose, then he will likely have more value at the deadline or in future offseasons. For Thad’s eventual trade value alone, I would start him at the 4, and have Brand come off the bench as a 4/5. That cannot score at the same clip at small forward. Also there is a better basketball player in his way at that position.
Thad and AI9 are similar only in two areas:
1) Height
2) Neither of them are full time defenders at the 2. (AI9 can do it in stretches but is obviously a better player for any team playing predominantly small forward vs. shooting guard. The won/lost percentages tell that story clearly.
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