Comparing the '08 and '09 Sixers
by Jordan Sams on Apr 20, 2010 12:07 AM PDT
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PrintIn 2009 the Sixers won 41 games in the regular season and 2 in the playoffs. In 2010 they won 27 games, and went from the 14th best defense to the 24th. After the huge drop-off, it came as no surprise that the Sixers fired first-year coach Eddie Jordan less than 24 hours after the season. He was a terrible coach, and a terrible fit, but was it all his fault?
"How much better would the Sixers be with a different coach?"
It's the question that's been asked hundreds of times, by hundreds of different people this season. There's no exact answer, so let's just compare rosters.
Rebounding
- In 2008 the Sixers had 4 above average (DRB%=.20) defensive rebounders (Dalembert, Marshall, Ratliff, Evans).
- In 2009 they had 1 above average defensive rebounder (Dalembert).
- In 2008 they had Andre Miller getting his teammates easy baskets (54% of assists at rim), producing efficiently (18.6 PER), putting pressure on defenses by getting to the line (4.9 per 36 minutes), and taking care of the basketball (14 TOV%).
- In 2009 they had Jrue Holiday playing better on-ball defense and shooting better from three, but getting less easy looks for his teammates (42% of assists at rim), playing with less efficiency (12.3 PER), getting to the line less (1.8 per 36 minutes), and turning the ball over at a much higher rate (21.9 TOV%).
- In 2008 the Sixers had a backup center (Ratliff) who could replace Dalembert without losing a ton of defense or rebounding.
- In 2009 the Sixers had Jason Smith.
- In 2008 the Sixers had 3 players shoot 34% or better from three.
- In 2009 the Sixers had 8 players shoot 34% of better from three.
- In 2008 the Sixers had Elton Brand for 29 games.
- In 2009 the Sixers had Elton Brand for 76 games.
- In 2008 the Sixers had a secret weapon who could come off the bench and almost single-handedly win games (Donyell Marshall). The Sixers were 5-2 last year when Donny Ice got 10+ minutes of playing time.
- In 2008 the Sixers had Jodie Meeks, who might have evolved into this role if he'd played the whole season.
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I believe this year was a failure due to the lack of coaching. 100%. Personally, I think this year’s team was a better team than 2008, just a coach that did not know how to coach, rotate players, talk to press. But he has the best looking teeth of the team!
You don’t think having only 1 above average rebounder compared to 4 had anything to do with it? Really?
Not saying you do, but making a general statement, people who want to ship sammy for next to nothing in return strictly for cap relief are foolish. Assuming we don’t pick up the only true center in the draft and can’t aquire one in exchange for sammy, just imagine Speights and Smith fighting for rebounds. That’s what I thought. Not saying Jordan didn’t have anything to do with it, but you can’t blame it all on him realisticly.
you also have to factor in that Young and Speights were supposed to show improvement and this year’s coaching staff failed to help in that category. It’s not entirely their fault, but you have to hold them responsible for a lack of development.
All in all, I think the loss of Miller was another major factor in their poor performance. Once again, you can blame the GM for not offering a better contract, or long-term you may agree it was for the best. It didn’t help matters that Jordan claimed his offense didn’t need a true PG.
In order from biggest factor to least I would say:
1. Jordan (for a multitude of reasons)
2. Loss of Miller
3. No reliable backup center
4. lack of veteran presence
5. new uniforms looking a bit too snazzy
Offering a long term extension to a 34 year old pg is ill advised, similar to offering a PF coming off a serious injury to a contract extending well into his twilight years. It’s not like we were getting out the first round w/ him anyway.
Well technically he was 33 until March of this year, with a game never truly based on athleticism and a pretty healthy injury history…the sixers didn’t re-sign him not because of his age, but because of the luxury tax, they offered him a deal, but only one year…
So I guess you’re the one who can find the quotes he wrote at the time that said the brand signing was a bad one?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions
PS
Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, pretty old compared to miller, much more athletic in their games no one is talking about them being too old or on bad contracts.
Age is a poor excuse for not signing miller to a 3 year deal, he would have been 36 at the end of it.
Steve Nash turned 36 in February
Jason Kidd turned 37 in March this year
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
The problem wasn’t lettting Miller walk. It was letting him walk with no legit replacement and then selling the team as “going uptown.”
If your replacement for Miller is going to be a 19 year old you should maybe present the year as a rebuilding one?
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
Well it was even worse than that, remember, they thought Louis Wiliams could play point guard…
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Not going to dispute with you on miller seing as how you’re correct, however on Brand, I’m not so sure. I’m not going to say I vehemently opposed the Brand signing, but I had my doubts. I hate to be an armchair gm, but offering a 29 year old PF whos game (unlike miller) was dependant on his athleticism, coming off a serious injury to a contract like the one he has, is in my oppion (for what that’s worth) unnecesarily risky. Something more along the lines of a 3 year contract with the same pay would have worked better. By this point, we’d see that he’s either A) Healthy and performing at a high level or the current situation B) Abbility has regressed due to injury.
This avenue of business would have given us plenty of time to evaluate Brand and, after a solid three years, we could decide his future with the team. There’s no debate in my mind whether or not we needed him, it’s quite obvious we needed someone to help w/ the halfcourt game. I just think a shorter contract should have been offered to avoid situations like this.
I believe it was brands first serious injury of his career and not the type that often recurs like a back injury – was it not?
Not all injuries are created equal
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
A valid point. Just out of curiosity, consider this scenario. You’re Ed Stefanski and you’re deciding to sign Elton Brand to get the team “over the hump” and win a championship, which was no doubt his thinking behind the signing, as it should be. All things considered, how long do you sign him for? Curious to see what you think ;)
I’m not sure it’s fair to attribute the sixers’ inability to escape the first round with having Miller as the PG.
The 08’09’ sixers had holes on their roster, but PG was not one of them.
I don’t think he was, but he has a valid point, with or without miller the sixers were a perpetual first round loser because of other roster problems (though never had brand and miller play together much, so who knows)
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but that falls back to the argument of blowing up the roster or adding pieces to improve the team. In regards to last year’s roster, I agree with the latter idea.
Their main problem areas were the bench, no perimeter threat, and (at the time) a center who whined and pouted. I don’t think that roster was overachieving by any means, but that’s completely subjective.
they didn’t ‘overachieve’ – they achieved exactly where they should have – mediocre and first round playoff loss.
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes he was really that bad
Kate Fagan did an article earlier in the season about losses because Joran was a god fracking awful coach – she didn’t do it a second time but I’m pretty sure the sixers would have at least 10 more wins if the coach wasn’t a complete and fucking moron.
Going all the way back to ‘preserving the pysche’ of Jrue Holiday
I was hoping now that the useless piece of flotsam was gone you’d end your crusade (uncomprehendable as it is) to say ‘Joran isn’t as bad as we think he is’
Just because his last name is your first name doesn’t mean we connect you with him.
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 7:28 AM PDT reply actions
What's the real question?
Is the exact questions like this: Hypothetically, given the same very good coach in 2008-09 vs. 2009-10 seasons and the actual rosters of those years, which team would have had a better record?"
That’s tough to say. My view is that with a good coach, the 2009-2010 Sixers should have been the better team defensively – the additional of Brand and Jrue should have outweighed the loss of Miller, Evans, and Ratliff on the defensive end of the floor (and Sam, arguably played better defense in 2009-2010). With better defense, the Sixers could run a little more and get more easy baskets, so their offense would start from a much stronger position than the half court mess of the actual 2009-2010 team. Could a good coach have found more situations to use Kapono on offense without being hurt by his defensive liabilities? Hard to say. I’m not going to argue that the loss of Miller would trump the addition and Brand and Kapono, so the 2008-2009 team would be better on offense. Overall it is too close to call.
The version of the question above is pretty different than these two:
After a season of poor organization, lack of discipline, and losing frustration under Jordan, could a good coach have taken over on the sideline in March 2010 and made that team suddenly play better than the actual 2008-2009 Sixers? In other words, we just assume it is a given of the problem that Speights 2008-2009 is better than Speights 2009-2010 and TYoung 2008-2009 is better than TYoung 2009-2010 and this has nothing to do with the coaching question. Maybe making an immediate winner of that end of the year mess is too much to ask of even a good coach.
I felt the sixers were at best 500 this past season – with talent – I believe a smarter coach plays jrue faster, and the sixers play better defense, and finish 500
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe my problem is not knowing
I have no idea what the expectation was for this team. Did they fire Mo Cheeks thinking they were going to get a few more wins? I question several moves that could easily be viewed as taking a step backwards instead of forward.
Did they let Ratliff walk because he spoke his mind? He did what was asked. Did they let Miller walk without getting anything in return because they wanted to let the young guys run the show? All the things listed above contributed to the downfall but some of this stuff could be seen as bad moves from the seats of our couches so I ask again, what was the REAL expectation of this team when entering in this season.
I can see keeping the players status quo if you get rid of the coach, or I can see making changes to the roster if you like the coach… but to do both is radical for a team that signed Andre and Elton to such lofty contracts and eliminated themselves from signing a big free agent.
I don’t see any moves that were made in the last 12 months that I said, “Ok, that makes sense.” I can sum up my feelings this way. You changed the jockey AND you changed the horse a few weeks before the start of the race and you had to know this would be the result.
Either improve or Start over!
by startingover0303 on Apr 20, 2010 8:53 AM PDT reply actions
Synergy now available
FYI, synergy sports now has a public version available to fans. If you’ve read around here, you know how much I praise synergy. This isn’t the full version that teams and selected members of the media use (wink), but it’s still incredible. It’s got the entire 2009-2010 NBA Season + Playoffs available, statistically and with video feeds, for $30. There’s no prior seasons (or high school, ncaa, or euroleague), but if you’re into basketball, and into situational statistics, it’s the best $30 you’ll ever spend.
Trying to get a login to it so I can compare/contrast with the full version and not mislead anyone.
Signup:
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=jonathandx
FAQ:
https://secure.mysynergysports.com/FAQ.aspx
Derek Bodner
by Derek Bodner on Apr 20, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
just an overall comment
yes, the season was a disaster, but EFJ and losing miller may have been the best thing for the long-term future of this franchise. keeping miller would have resulted in more wins, squeaking into the playoffs, a first round exit and a pick in the middle of the first round. Plus, add Jrue’s lack of development to that list since he wouldn’t have been playing as much.
This year was a wake-up call that we weren’t that close to contending, major changes need to be made, and we can get a top talent in the draft with some luck. hopefully, the guys making the decisions going forward know what they are doing…..
Regardless of who’s fault it was, this was the best thing that could’ve happened to the franchise. Re-signing Miller would’ve meant less development of Jrue and no top 10 pick. Now we know what we have in Jrue, and have a top 8 pick. Re-signing Miller could’ve also saved Jordan’s job, IMO.
Like someone commented, I just wish they pushed the rebuilding plan when they let Miller walk, and drafted Jrue instead of Lawson/Collison.
Seems to me, they still believe they’re contenders, which bothers me.
Well the ‘best’ thing that could have happened to the franchise is more awareness of th need for tanking, a coach dedicated more to player development than the W-L record, and a coach who didn’t think Nate Robinson could scar a 19 year olds pysche :)
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Dear Someone smarter than me (there aren’t as many of you as you THINK there are folks :)
If you have some free time, and could possibly do an indepth analysis of how Rick Adelman was successful in Sacramento and compare/contrast it as to how he’s successful in Houston – what’s the same what’s different, that would be awesomeness
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 11:01 AM PDT reply actions
I’m talkinga bout how he seems to have two very disparate rosters in terms of strengths and weaknesses but builds winners out of both of them – not ‘buying’ the ingredients but how he makes an italian masterpiece and then easily switches to spanish cuisine (you get the point)
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know the specifics- but on the face of it those teams were very different. the only similarities were having star post players and a de-emphasis on the PG position (part of Princeton/Read&React.)
But they were very different teams. Webber/Divac are unlike Yao and the Kings had no one like TMac.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
That’s kind of my point – that’s the kind of guy i want coaching the sixers, not a slave to a system, or a set roster type, but a guy who looks at his roster and says ‘ok here’s what i hve, here’s what i don’t have and herw’s how THIS roster can best win’
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Elston Turner… his lead assistant.
The only problem I have is that the Princeton or Read & React (or whatever you call it) de-emphasize the PG position. But I was for Turner last year, so maybe I should not allow EJ to completely turn us away from that type of scheme.
The Sixers offense was not exactly the problem this year- and Jrue can probably excel in most schemes- as long has he keeps shooting well.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
Do they run the same offense in Houston that they ran in Sacto
was Elston in both places?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
‘the kind of guy’ means an example.
Would I love adelman as the next sixers coach – sure i would – but he’s got a job :)
ANy assistant who has really contributed in BOTH Sacto and Houston would be a guy i’d be comfortable with because he learned under Adelman
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I just don’t want someone like EJ who builds his team around a system and doesnt play to the hand he’s dealt.
That’s kind of my piont and why i’m interested in adelman and anyone who learned under adelan as I see him as a guy who adjusts to the talent he has?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
A. I don’t like Van Gundy’s attitude when he does games
B. Van Gundy says that Adelman did better with the roster than he did – so is it just a better fit to adelmans ‘system’ or did van gundy try a system that didn’t work as well as it did in New York?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
You also could’ve went back to his Portland teams that lost in the Finals to DET & CHI in the early 90s. From Portland to Sac to Hou, Adelman built successful two-way teams around talents like Drexler/Porter to Webber/Peja/Divac/Bibby to Yao/T-Mac. As eclectic a mix you can get
Until I read this post I was unaware that he coached in Portland – honestly
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
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