Defending the Dalembert Trade Once More
by Jordan Sams on Oct 7, 2010 10:28 PM PDT
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PrintOver the past few days I've seen complaints on how terrible the Dalembert trade was because it resulted in a roster lacking any interior defense or rebounding. It's a valid concern, but it's short-sighted.
The people predicting 40+ wins for the Sixers are vastly underestimating the loss of Dalembert. He was a top 5 rebounder, our only interior defense and arguably our second best player. As I've said numerous times, trading him for Hawes and Nocioni makes the Sixers a much worse team right now. However; the best possible outcome this season is another top 5 pick, and having Dalembert on the roster obviously hurts those chances. He also takes minutes away from Speights, Hawes and Brackins. Whether or not any of the three ever amount to anything is irrelevant. The important thing is seeing how much potential each have, and don't have.
If all you want out of this season is 40 wins and a first round playoff loss, then yeah, you should be irate with the trade. But if you want the Sixers to look past this season and attempt to build a champion in the future, the Dalembert trade makes a whole lot of sense.
Disclaimer: Unlike last year I will not be rooting against the Sixers (at least openly). No #MissionWTFs, no lottery updates, nothing. I'll strictly be rooting for development and competitive, entertaining basketball. If that results in 40 wins and a whoppin' by the Heat in the first round, awesome. If it results in 20 wins and Perry Jones, also awesome.
Regardless of win total I remain confident that the Sixers will be infinitely more enjoyable to follow, both on and off the court. Although that second pre-season game definitely gave me Eddie Jordan flashbacks.
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I'm a Wiz fan, and thus...
Completely agree. I’ve lived through plenty of first-round playoff exits, being a fan of DC sports in general, and believe me when I tell you if you’re not playing for a title, it’s just masturbation.
We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Oct 8, 2010 3:17 AM PDT reply actions
2011 Cap space?
Which is all fine, except you somehow left out that we picked up Nocioni, and suddenly went from having what looked like a nice sized amount of cap space in 2011, to having little.
Obviously the new CBA will effect how much cap space it would be exactly, but I don’t see how you can defend the trade without examining this.
If you wanted Dalembert off the team, he could have told to stay home and bought out. He was an expiring. So is a season of Hawes and having him as a restricted free agent worth taking on 6.6 million in Nocioni salary next season?
with no chance of carmelo and al horford looking at an extension in atlanta, what free agents would be worth the cap space? I mean, sure cap space is nice but when there’s nobody worth it on the market, it’s pointless.
the 2011 free agent class is very sub-par. If the Sixers had the cap space, they’d end up overpaying for someone. I’d say it’s a good thing they are putting off their free agency run
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 5:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Assuming we don’t sign anyone big, I definitely disagree with the assessment that capspace
it’s pointless. Every year there is a team willing to dump a player, and possibly a pick with them, to get under the luxury tax. The range of trade options a team has is dramatically wider. In fact, both of these are probably better reasons than just a free agent signing (unless your Miami)
But lets take a look at big men that could possibly be around in the 10 million range in 2011:
Carl Landry (U)
Nenad Kristic (U)
Troy Murphy (U)
Zach Randolph (U) Probably gets more than this
Tyson Chandler (U)
Glen Davis (U)
David West (ETO)
Nene (ETO)
Noah ( R) now signed
M. Gasol ( R)
Oden ( R)
Horford ( R)
I’m not sure I’m willing to give up the opportunity to offer 10 million to Gasol/Noah/Horford, not for Hawes.
Yea that wouldn’t have worked for Noah, and might not work for all 3.
Perkins? 10 million to Oden, and worse case scenario, you didn’t miss out on Durant?
Oh, something like Oden could backfire big time or Stefanski could have committed 40 million to Pryzbilla, but we clearly need more assets, and losing that cap space takes away some good possibilities.
It’s also a huge gamble when the only players worth giving that money to are restricted free agents – I don’t see any way Memphis doesn’t match a Gasol offer (will probably extend him before the season’s up anyway) and Horford’s already in talks on an extension before the CBA expires. That only leaves a humongous risk on paying Greg Oden that type of money. If he could stay healthy (which isn’t likely looking at his first 3 years) it would absolutely pay off, but if not, it’s a waste. The other free agents in that list would be horrible fits on this team. All old except for Davis and he’s not worth near that kind of money (again, wouldn’t be surprised if Boston extends him during the season). So then you got all this money and nobody to give it to unless you overpay for mediocre players. I’d rather give Hawes a one year tryout, have Nocioni expire the season after when we have more of an idea what we have in Jrue and Turner and what needs to be around them
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 6:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Its a big gamble to hope you can get a restricted free agent, but why rule it out for Hawes? We basically said we don’t want to try and reach for anything great, but are happy with our consolation prize of Hawes. Best case scenario, Hawes becomes average and so do we as a team?
And some how I left Perkins off my list as Unrestricted, (but included him in the comment after). 10 million might be overpaying, but I think you have a legitimate shot at him and he is still on the younger side… Or there is always the look for a decent trade from a team dumping salary.
If Perkins didn’t have that ACL tear during the Finals, I’d agree, but big men and knee problems don’t mix well
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
The only guy on this list who I’m interested in is Oden, and the odds of us prying him away from Portland were slim to none. Even if he left Portland, I doubt Philly would be a realistic landing spot. Like Tanner said, the lack of cap space is ultimately a good thing, because it prevents the front office from making a Elton Brandesque mistake. You build a champion through the draft and trades, not free agency. The exception obviously being the Miami Heat.
But cap space matters for building through trades and the draft...
And doesn’t cap space help you make trades?
If the argument is I’m glad we don’t have cap space because our front office is so stupid they would ruin everything, I think this is a massive cop out. After all, it doesn’t matter what they do then then because the front office is so stupid they would just ruin it anyway.
Miami traded away a draft pick to get out from Dequan Cook, Chicago traded away the 17th pick to get out from Kirk Hinrich, Utah sold Maynor to get out from under Maynor, New York gave away more stuff than I could post to get rid of Jared Jeffries (who had Nocioni money left on his contract), rumor has it to even be considered a trade for Chris Paul would need to absorb significant salary…
Cap space matters for building through trades and the draft.
Looking at the free agents I agree they are in general older or riskier, but I haven’t seen the upside in Hawes to convince me we are etter shutting the door on being able to offer a contract to Perkins, Oden, Gasol, or have the space for trades.
I could be wrong, Hawes is 7 foot and young, but I think this is the basis for evaluating the trade, not ‘yeah, we got rid of Sammy 1 year early’.
I definitely agree with your assessment of the trade but I think you and management have two difference of opinions on the trade.
If that was the case too secure a top 5 pick, they would of told sammy to just stay home like hart ford said and not pick up more salary. fo thought they could revitalize hawes career here which collins said himself in an interview.
The goal was too keep defenses honest by having big men that could hit the jumper allowing our guards to drive to the basket more frequently which is our guards greatest area of strength, which collins said out of his own mouth.
As of right now with hawes, it has backfired, but again its only two preseason games.
Disclaimer: Unlike last year I will not be rooting against the Sixers (at least openly).
Is this for the entire year? What if at one point they’re 12-30, does that change ?
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
Yeah I'll go ahead and call shenanigans on that
I’ll be rooting for losses pretty early on. Development + Losses= Goodtimesroll.
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The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Oct 8, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I am far from a draft guru- but looking at the 2011 mock drafts I see only 1 true center among the top 30, and then a few talented PF/C’s. While last year their were maybe 6 or 7 guys drafted who have the potential to become starting centers (at least in terms of size and raw tools.)
So it seems like the Sixers are unlikely to find a center in next years draft. And by taking on the extra 7M in Nocioni’s deal they no longer will be in play for NBA FA centers like Gasol or Perkins.
I see Hawes as a bench player and a not a legit starting center. Speights fits better long term at PF (and maybe also off the bench.) So that suggests the team will have to trade for a legit defensive center.
Spearate from any Turner discussion- the Sixers knew Sam was not the future as far back as 2 years ago. Stefanski utterly failed to bring in a legit defensive center to develop. Whether it was missing out on De’Andre Jordan slipping top the 2nd round, or not using a pick this year (either the #2 or through a trade getting another pick) to get one of the many centers available in last year’s draft. Again, not saying Turner was a mistake- but having Hawes as the only Center on this team going forward is a nightmare spawned by Stefanski’s ineptitude.
don’t even get me started on how angry I am they didn’t swing something to try and get Orton, Whiteside, or Alabi…
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Its painful to think that the Sixers ended up getting the #21 pick for Will f’n Green, and yet they fail to get Orton, Plieb, Pittman, Jordan, Whiteside or Alabi- all of whom where taken much later in the draft. And we basically sold Fasenko away 3 years ago.
Come on, that is 6 guys taken between picks #29 – #50 who have legit chances to be solid defensive centers. I’m not saying any are going to be studs- but the team has nobody to defend the basket and no plan to get one anytime soon.
Just reeks of poor execution by Stefanski. I hope Thorn can clean this up.
In Thorn You Trust
Yeah…Thorn can get them another 12-70 season…it’s his specialty (as much as everyone wants to blame Ratner, Thorn was still in charge of personnel). And as you said, this is a particularly weak draft year, so a top five pick doesn’t really help much.
Since evidently even the guys we thought could play can’t play (see, for example, Jrue), maybe we should be on a #MissionWTF again this year, and hopefully the guy they get won’t be a colossal bust this time. But it doesn’t look like any problems are going to get solved in this draft.
Honestly, I’m not really sure what to make of this season. It doesn’t seem like there’s much of a chance to even be competitive/interesting, based on early showings. But the draft is so weak that it’s probably not worth tanking, either.
Thorn needs to be on the phone with the only executive in the league worse than him. Is there anyone on Minnesota’s roster we’re interested in their trading for? Maybe Hawes and Turner for Kevin Love? :D
It doesn’t help at center, but Tiny Gallon is a free agent after being cut by Mil. We could always pick him up and pretend we bought a mid second round pick.
Seriously though, Brand is not the future, so what is the long term pf plan? Thad is more of a three, according to even the coach that said he wanted him to be a 4. Speights is a question mark at c or pf. Brackins plays small. Unless Speights works out we could be having this same conversation about the pf position in 2 seasons.
Tiny Gallon is a free agent after being cut by Mil
I wouldn’t mind that, although he’s got some weight issues and is the exact opposite of quick. But he does provide a big body with some potential which I’m probably overvaluing
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions
speaking of fensenko...
are we ever going to get Utah’s 2nd rounder they gave up for him? It feels like it just sort of disappeared
"I'm a beast ready to be unleashed." -- Paul George
by Tanner Steidel on Oct 8, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I dream about it at night.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / SBN Philly / Twitter
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Oct 8, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: No big men in the 2011 Draft
I don’t care what position they draft. I’m all about stockpiling talent and making a move when Elton expires.
P.S. For all the reasons I liked the Dalembert trade, I’d like an Iguodala trade mid-season, as long as it’s for young talent and picks, not Carmelo Anthony or another vet.
Random comment from philly.com board
“reakky bad for us that eb an sp8ts and the new whity canzt D at any level”
huh… i dont know if that hood or retarded i can understand the k’s cause its next to l but “canzt” what the hell is that
by killacaravagio on Oct 9, 2010 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions
He makes a good point.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / SBN Philly / Twitter
The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Michael Bourn
by Michael Levin on Oct 9, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
The Dalembert trade made sense, because we’re now moving forward. Dalembert is not a good enough player to be part of a championship team. As a a back-up center he’d be great, but not as an NBA starter.
Since you could never win a title with him, and you were paying him too much to get anyone else and keep him, he had to go. Whatever else happens that was the truth, Sam was the one constant since the AI era ended, and we could never even become the 4th best team in the East with him.
Nocioni can be traded, and so can a lot of the others. We may get en early playoff exit out of this group, and even if it is “just masturbation”it will still feel pretty good considering the last season. Obviously the team is still a work in progress, but I;m convinced that Sam was a roadblock
The Sam trade was about money. The team was going to be over the tax. After the trade they are just under the tax.
So they basically sacrificed cap space next summer so they could avoid the tax penalty at the end of this season. Which is not the end of the world- its basketball reality for a lot of teams.
So they basically sacrificed cap space next summer so they could avoid the tax penalty at the end of this season.
Agreed. But cap space can be used to improve the team. Luxury tax savings just improve the team’s finances.
Now if they want to use that financial savings to buy a draft pick, then I think it balances. Otherwise, its just like having an owner who sells a first or second round pick, it is cashing out a basketball asset. Comcast isn’t at the bottom of the league with salaries, many teams have this worse, which is true. Financial savings doesn’t effect the basketball side of the ledger, unless they put that money to work elsewhere.
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