The Jrue Conflict
At 9:04 PM on the better coast, David Stern announced we had taken Jrue Holiday.
I assume you knew this. I was furious. As Jrue kept falling past the Bucks, the Pacers, the Suns, I grew more and more wary that we'd take him if he fell to us. Lawson and Maynor were sitting there, ripe for the picking, but we opted for the 6'3" freshman "point guard" from UCLA. I'll do my best in this post to outline some clear reasons why I don't like this pick (one of which is to stir up the pot since Jordan is riding the Jrue Holiday bandwagon sipping on margaritas in his UNLV speedo). I won't talk about his poor outside shooting or weak ballhandling skills specifically, because he has a chance to develop them, but they are worth thinking about.
- Allow me to first make clear the fact that I don't dislike Jrue Holiday. In fact, I think he has a good shot to be one of the top two or three point guards in this draft when we look back in 10 years. I also believe that getting a guy with this much potential at pick 17 is a steal, and a great value pick. With that in mind, the rest of the bullets will attempt to convey why I don't think he's the right fit for this team right now.
- Jrue Holiday didn't play the point guard position in college. Somehow, people are commending him for going to UCLA and playing out of position despite knowing Darren Collison is the point guard for Ben Howland's snail offense. He knew he was only going to stay in school for one year, but decided he'd like to spend that year at the 2-guard, an unnatural position for Holiday. I don't see the reasoning here. Why wouldn't he, like Tyreke Evans, go to a school where he'd get a shot to play the position that he's believed to play as a professional. (Hypothetical and extremely unrealistic situation alert) If you're the best criminal lawyer prospect that only has to go to school for one year (I know, right?) before you can go out and practice law, you wouldn't go to a school where there's already a criminal lawyer and practice maritime law just for kicks. Awful analogies aside, he should have been playing the point guard position somewhere to get ready for the role he'll take on as a pro.
- As a shooting guard for Ben Howland, Jrue played 27 minutes a night, and scored 8.5 PPG with a 3.7 to 2.1 A/TO. He shot a solid 45% FG but only 31% from beyond. For the number one high school prospect, that is severely underperforming. Some say this is the nature of the UCLA offense. On the east coast, I didn't get to see Holiday as much as I'd like, but I did see about 5 games and I was totally unimpressed. He disappeared for long stretches, didn't demand the ball offensively, and didn't look comfortable out there. It's only a couple games, yes, but I like to see a player on the court before blindly trusting the experts (although I'm confident most of them are smarter than I). One argument I've heard out of the pro-Jrue camp is that this should draw comparisons to a freshman Russell Westbrook. I'd like to dispel this notion before it gains too much speed.
- Westbrook had much less hype than Holiday coming into his freshman year, but both players were listed as shooting guards. Westbrook's freshman year was awful, playing only 9 minutes a game because he had Josh Shipp, Arron Afflalo, and the same Darren Collison playing in front of him. In the first game of his sophomore season, Collison went down with an injury. So Russell was thrust into the starting lineup at the point, and he thrived until DC was healthy and relegated to the bench. But Westbrook's play forced Howland's hand, who after a few games, brought him back to the starting lineup to play the 2 guard. When Westbrook came out after his sophomore season, he could play both guard spots, and put up pretty good numbers doing it (13, 4, and 4 in 34 minutes per). Holiday really hasn't shown that he can play either guard spot at a high level and didn't come back for his sophomore season like Westbrook did, so he's a much less known commodity. For every Russell Westbrook, there's a million more guys like Keyon Dooling, Randy Foye, Rashad McCants, Shaun Livingston, Dajuan Wagner, and Will Avery. Westbrook and Wade are the exceptions rather than the rule, and it's unfair and unrealistic to think that just because they both went to UCLA and measure at 6'3" that Holiday will be anywhere near Westbook's production for the next few years.
- Last offseason, we signed Elton Brand to a 5 year, $82 million dollar deal to be our best player and lead us to a championship. Sane people on this planet that have ever watched basketball are not ready to give up on Brand in Philadelphia after an injury riddled 29 games and two head coaching changes. By the time Holiday is even close to being ready to contribute as a starter, Brand will be in the 4th year of his deal, and will turn 33 during that season. I have no idea what will happen until then, but his injuries have been a concern, and hopefully by then he'll have strung a few healthy seasons together. But if he falls off the cliff in his production at 32, then Holiday will not only have to contribute as a starter, but as one of the two or three go-to guy's in this offense, which is something that he hasn't shown he can do.
- With Thaddeus, Iguodala, and Speights, this team has a big window to try and win. But if Elton Brand is going to be the centerpiece of this team on its way to a championship, Holiday was not the pick here. This was not a "Win Now" pick. I don't think we would be winning a championship if Lawson was our starting guard, but I think we'd contend, and put ourselves in good position to win next year. If Thad keeps developing and Speights works on his defense, we could potentially be championship contenders next season with the right guy running the show. They're both going to want their money when Jrue is ready. Add Iguodala's fat contract and we're looking at a lot of cash devoted to 4 guys just when Holiday is ready to get in the pool. Holiday will be 20 next season. He's not the guy that can lead this team to a championship right now. Ty Lawson could have been. I don't think just because Lawson left as a junior that his development has leveled off and he's reached his ceiling. True, Holiday has more potential, but his floor is also much lower than Lawson's. I think that Lawson will end up being the better pro, especially sitting behind Billups in Denver for a year or two, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Holiday is. This is the culminating point of my argument. Not that Holiday was a bad pick at 17, or that he'll be a bust in the NBA. But for this team assembled right now, he's not the guy that can get us to where we need to be.
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Comments
contenders now?
it is reasonable to think that we could win the title next year, with or without Ty Lawson? I say no, so better work for (a reasonably short) future than living on wrong expectations. Jrue is a solid choice.
by apfan on Jun 27, 2009 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we have an outside shot if Miller comes back.
But no doubt, our championship window will come a few years down the road.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we have an outside shot if miller comes back – he’s slowing down – not a good defender, and I don’t think he fits the new system.
If Sam is the starting center with Eddie Jordan as head coach, I don’t think the sixers can contend – he’s just too disruptive to the offense.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
In that case.
Our best option is to semi-rebuild. The Gortat thing really interests me.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be very happy to have a filler pg for this year (Blake) if that means we sign Gortat
by rs2100 on Jun 27, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gortat is almost a must to contend because he has more offensive skill than sam and doesn’t suck defensively – Brand CAN NOT play the five…it frightens me.
What does anyone know about Marquis Daniels.
Jordan – go read Brians piece – the sixers are ‘built’ pretty well at 4 positions for a while with a lot of contracts coming off in 2011
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read it when he posted it.
Good read. Reminds me of the Rays in baseball — stockpiling young talent.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think we'd contend with Gortat this year?
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope – too many variables – but 2010/11 season I think they’d be contenders even with Holiday after one seasons ‘seasoning’
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indiana declined Marquis Daniels' option
He’d be a solid backup on the wing. Maybe a MLE candidate.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Lou starting at point guard?
If we were able to get Gortat.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Deep breath) .. I think would take Lou at point for a year if we get Gortat. I'd be able to get through esp. since our new offense doesn't require a true point. Curious to see if Lou has the smarts to thrive in a offense like this
by rs2100 on Jun 27, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically.
It’s like trading Miller and Sam for Lou and Gortat. I’d be okay with that.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Sam.
Getting rid of him is probably the number one priority.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but
If we get rid of him we better be going after Gortat hard.
our interior defense is going to be putrid if not
by rs2100 on Jun 27, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have no chance at Gortat. During the playoffs they were saying that the Knicns wanted him or that Orlando was going to re-sign him and they both have more money then us.
fightlockdown.com
by The Legend on Jun 27, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
as far as ‘us’ in concerned – Comcast has a lot of money.
The knicks are over the cap – they can’t offer ANY more money to him than the sixers can – and they won’t – because it eats up cap space for 2010 so they can get lebron and bosh. I’ve read nothing that says the knicks will go after him, aside from the fans writers who think the knicks should get everyone and everyone wants to play with new york.
Orlando is afraid of the luxury tax and just traded for Vince Carter – plus he won’t start in Orlando.
He’s there for the sixers taking if they want him- he should be their primary july 1st off season target
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thought exactly
We’re not contenders now. In an absolute most wonderful case scenario we’re 4th in the East, and that’s probably a stretch. If not for that, Maynor probably was the best choice, and may have been a choice. But our window is a few years away — right when Holliday should be hitting his stride.
We’ve made our name the last few years taking high ceiling/low floor guys, like Thad, and like Speights. They seem to have worked out so far. I’ll trust this team that Holliday’s the best guy.
by wildcatlh on Jun 27, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off
Even Howland thought Colison was leaving – signing day is before the end of the season – Holiday was recruited to play point guard.
Secondly – the sixers weren’t going to contend next year no matter WHO they drafted…to think they were going to be serious contenders next year is an overly optimistic view of EVERYTHING going right and Lawson coming in as more than he has ever been (or ever will be) in the NBA.
Thirdly – for those who have no faith in the sixers ability to draft – Young, Speights, getting Kyle Korver late, willie green and louis williams were ‘good’ for a time and late steals, hell even sam dalembert was an unknown when he wwas drafted and worked out ‘ok’ (I hate him still) for his draft positioning. Those who have no faith in the fact that the sixers know what they’re doing in the draft baffle me, it’s the ONLY think they seem to get right.
Elton Brand is not old – elton brand will be 32 at the end of his contract…the sixers competetive window is not a short period of time.
However, Brian over at depressed fine just wrote a good piece regarding people thinking that the sixers are screwed.
Go read it
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 9:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Brand was born in March of 1979
His contract is up after the 2012/2013 season. That’s 34.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said I have no faith in their draft ability
But there’s a difference between drafting when you’re in rebuilding mode and drafting to win a championship. I didn’t say that we draft Lawson and we’re automatically the best team in the league, I think getting Holiday now makes the Brand signing look stupid. It seems to me that we’re going in two different directions, planning for the future but having our best frontcourt player on the downside of his career.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jrue at the 2
So what if he doesnt become a great PG? Im not saying that he wont, but what if he developes into more of a 2 gaurd? I know hes undersized, but he still has a great wingspan to help compensate for the lack of height, and besides, did you notice who we sent out at the 2 on a regular basis this year? Willie Green? Come on, I bet Jrue could start over Willie THIS YEAR.
I think hell make this team better, it may not be at the PG position, but I think he will still be a pretty good pick.
by philiafan14364 on Jun 27, 2009 9:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He says he’s a point, the sixers say he’s a point – aside from one year t UCLA he was a point – people need to go back and see how much Russel Westbrook (didn’t) play when at UCLA behind collison and how (not) good his numbers were.
He went to UCLA with one expectation and got stuck in another, I think people are reading too much into one year at UCLA – the stuff that made him one of the top 5 high schoolers before he went to UCLA is still there – he just was in a bad situation but did get better defensively – and as a point guard he’s a defensive asset next to iguodala in the back court – guards will hate playing the sixers.
Maybe it’s cause there’s nothing else to talk about but it seems that way too much is being read into about the long term future of the sixers.
People were high on lawson and maynor because holiday wasn’t supposed to drop that far – most people didn’t even bother learninga bout him or considering him as an option cause he projected so high (btw – he didn’t project high when he declared, he worked his way up to that projection – so don’t tell me he’s lazy)
Oh yeah – take note
Jeff Teague and Ty Lawson would have been the two the sixers ‘fought’ over if Holiday was available.
Maynor was not going to be an option it seems
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Westbrook is a good comparison, but are we convinced he’s really a point guard?
The Maynor thing is interesting considering Ford had the Sixers taking him in 8 out of 9 mock drafts (I believe.)
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Ford isn’t stefanski or dileo – and both mentioned teague and lawson would have been the debate if holiday not available :)
I wasn’t comparing the positions, just two guys who went to UCLA and ‘underperformed’ because darren collison was a very good college point guard :)
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, but Ford had a pretty good beat on every other team. This leads me to believe the Sixers were very secretive in the whole process.
The funny thing is, the people who rip Holiday for his college numbers are probably the same people who ripped teams for taking Reddick and Morrison just because of their college numbers. Ultimately, college numbers mean very little.
Thad’s numbers sucked in college, and I can’t remember what Iguodala put up.
by jsams on Jun 27, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morrison and Redick were ripped picks cause they were unathletic guys who benefitted from being int he right system – they weren’t nba players – they were quality college players (which is the rip on hasborough) – like Laettner as well..some guys do well in college who won’t do well in the NBA, collison projects mediocre in the NBA but was aa very good college point guard.
The sixers have a history of being secretive and smart on draft day so i’m giving them the benefit of the doubt.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has played zero NBA games so not really valid to talk about
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 29, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jason, he is in the right system in indiana, larry bird type of guy, as a unc fan i hope he does do well but i do not think he is gonna be a star. And like many unc players, some do in fact live up to the hype (MJ VC) but many do not (Mccants, May), but as a ‘hustle player’, he will fill that role well
by ajgraham on Jun 29, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like to see a player produce no matter the level
If they’re not putting up numbers in college, what indicates they will in the NBA? I understand coaching and personnel play a huge part in their success, but that is why I would want him to stay at school another year. Succeeding in high school is such a gigantic difference from contributing in the NBA. We tend to think it’s not huge because of Lebron, Amare, and Garnett having solid first professional seasons, but countless others have failed a number of years before doing anything. Westbrook showed more in college than Holiday did, especially at the point guard spot.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The sooner he gets to the NBA the sooner he can play NBA ball.
How many very successful college ballers haven’t gone on to do SQUAT in the NBA, we got recent guys like morrison and redick, we can go back in the day for tyus edney and christian laettner.
Fans don’t know even 1/4 as much as they think they do about the NBA in general, when it comes to scouting the drafting I’d say that they don’t know 90% of what they think they know. People dismissing HOliday based on his stat line for his freshman year, or bloggers with a grudge not only are blowing off Holiday and his natural skills which are recognized by many scouts and other organizations but also saying they have no faith int he organization that drafted thaddeus young or speights.
If you think you know better than them – that’s great – but you don’t
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m expressing an opinion John. What’s the point of talking about this stuff if your response to everything is that I don’t know more than them? Clearly I don’t, but this is a blog, and that’s how they are run. By people’s opinions.
And Christian Laettner had a good, if unspectacular, NBA career.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you’re including yourself in “they”.
I know you like to play devil’s advocate, which is fine, but I feel like you’re putting words into people’s mouths and putting “everyone” in a category — some of which don’t deserve to be.
As far as the Bruins blogger goes, he watched every Jrue Holiday game in college, so I’ll take his opinion over many of “ours”.
by jsams on Jun 28, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iguodala in college
in 2003 Iguodala averaged 6 pts a game and about 5 boards. In 2004 he averaged just under 13 ppg and 8 rpg.
by JasonB on Jun 29, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the time Holiday is even close to being ready to contribute as a starter, Brand will be in the 4th year of his deal
I remember people saying that our last two draft picks wouldn’t contribute for a couple years and they didn’t do to bad when they got playing time.
fightlockdown.com
by The Legend on Jun 27, 2009 11:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
By the time Holiday is even close to being ready to contribute as a starter, Brand will be in the 4th year of his deal
Holiday will be contributing as a bench guy no later than halfway into the season – he is already the best back up point guard on the roster – assuming he even works at it half assed he’ll be the best back up they have.
I predict he’s starting no later than all star break 2011 (his second season) – and by then all the sixers will be gelling in the jordan system and hopefully a quality center is on the team.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering we have no other point guards on our roster, saying he’s the best point guard is not saying much. I think it’s optimistic to say that he’s starting by February of 2011, it depends on who we sign to play in front of him until then, and that’s saying his development is really fast.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t consider 1.5 seasons ‘real fast’ – I mean I’ve been waiting for Sam Dalembert to develop for years now.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We drafted 17, guys. 17. We are analyzing our pick like it was the 3rd pick in the draft. We got a lottery pick in most accounts. What more can be said. We need a point guard and according to most of the experts, we got a very good point guard down the road. Btw, I wanted Lawson and initially I was disappointed. But after 36 hours of time and alot of research, I am CONVINCED we got our best point guard of the future of choices in this draft. Lawson wlll be good but I believe Jrue maybe excellent. Time will tell.
I tend to be very optimistic but to think the sixers can compete this year is even beyond my optimism. The following year is a posibility DEPENDING on Sam and progressing of the young guys.
by DeanH on Jun 27, 2009 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
jemagee is right- Jrue committed to UCLA with the intention of playing point guard because Darren was exploring his draft options. Why would this even be a knock against him anyway? If anything, playing besides and against Collison has made Holiday a better player because of it.
No one’s going to deny that this is a project pick. Jrue did not post great numbers in college, but he’s young for his class at only 19. But upon second examination of his numbers, they’re not terrible, considering: a) the slow UCLA pace, and b) he wasn’t the priority option on offense. In 27 minutes a game, he grabbed 3.8 rebounds and 3.7 assists from the 2 spot. He also picked up 1.6 steals a game, which is a nice number. Compared to Russell Westbrook’s sophomore season, the popular comparison, 12.7 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.9 blocks, 1.6 steals. Let’s not discount the fact that Russell played 6 more minutes per game than Jrue, too. Put those numbers next to each other and I can’t say there’s that much difference there. Now I’m not saying that this means Holiday is automatically as good or better than Westbrook, but I’m just saying that the numbers aren’t THAT bad, and while disappointing, they don’t mean everything anyway.
However, I don’t think that Holiday was drafted based on his numbers or his offense. It’s his defense. He played defense at UCLA, and that is something that a lot of 19 year olds are lacking coming into the NBA. He has excellent size and length at 6’4" with a 6’7" wingspan, and that’s really a luxury at the point guard position. You don’t have that with Lawson, at 6’0" with a 6’0" wingspan. Even with Maynor you get a guy that’s 6’3" with 6’3" wingspan and 164 pounds. Holiday is 200. His frame allows him to get much more physical on defense and shut down other players. You just can’t teach those physical tools, which is definitely something that needs to be taken into consideration here.
Finally, I disagree with the analysis that he doesn’t fit with the current Sixers roster. They are not built to win now with the exception of having Elton Brand on the roster. Just because you signed one big star doesn’t meant that you’re going to win now. Examine the rest of the roster. The core is built around Andre Iguodala, Thad Young, Mo Speights, Lou Williams, Jason Smith, and now, Jrue Holiday. Iggy is the oldest at an ancient 25 years old. Smith is 23, Lou is 22, Thad and Mo are 21, and Jrue is 19. This team is going to hit its prime in 4-5 years. They’ll get to play and grow together, which is plenty enough for Jrue to develop. Lawson or Maynor would have been nice too, but they just aren’t as imposing as Holiday. The flexibility that you get with Holiday out there is great too. Because he’s so big and plays defense, you can actually get Lou Williams out there on the floor at the 2. If you took Maynor or Lawson, you most likely don’t play Williams out there with them because your backcourt would be too small and sketchy on defense, especially with Lawson. Holiday is big enough and can be strong enough to mark NBA 2 guards. Even if Holiday never becomes a great shooter or scorer, which I think he’ll be pretty good in a couple years anyway, he’ll have lots of offensive firepower with Williams, Iguodala, Young, and Speights in the future. Brand might be older when Holiday hits his stride, but that’s why Speights is there, right?
Needless to say, I was clamoring for Jrue from the beginning. He was the top of my personal list, and it looks like the Sixers staff agreed. I love the pick, and at 17, there is no risk. He could end up being a great player without being paid a huge salary like top lottery picks. Just a great value at their spot. They have nothing to lose by taking a chance with Jrue Holiday.
by ghsu on Jun 27, 2009 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagreed with the Russell Westbrook comparisons
Westbrook panned out, but there are tons more players who were tweeners that didn’t work out. It’s a risk but still good value at 17.
If we weren’t trying to win now, then why would we have signed Brand in the first place? This move contradicts the philosophy in place at the time of the Brand/Iguodala signings.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s obvious you don’t understand the Westbrook comparisons – which is one problem – the comparison isn’t to westbrook now for christs sake – it’s for this time a year ago when the thunder drafted him and all the ‘i know better’ bloggers pointed to his college stats and were baffled as to why they made the pick. He was at UCLA – he couldn’t ‘beat out’ darren collison.
A year later, all the people who thought westbrook was a bad pick have deleted those thoughts from their memories rather than admit that they are wrong.
If we weren’t trying to win now, then why would we have signed Brand in the first place? This move contradicts the philosophy in place at the time of the Brand/Iguodala signings.
Well – frankly – that’s complete and utter bull – iguodala is still young and has a lot of years on his contract – and elton brand isnt old either…seriously he’s what, 28 years old? Brand and IGuodala still have a lot of tread on their tires – these were not desperate win now moves – i mean seriously if they were – why bother drafting speights at all – should have just traded the pick to take a one year shot.
The sixers are building their team smartly and all I can fathom is that because they didn’t pick who you wanted them to pick you’re pissed off
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 27, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s 30, it takes about a second to do the research. And once again, I’m not pissed off, I’m just expressing an opinion after seeing him play. John, please relax, you don’t have to get all worked up about this stuff. I am very ok with it if you disagree with me. And I hope Holiday is a Hall of Famer. I’m not pissed off, I’m disagreeing with where they went in the draft. That’s all. Nothing more, nothing less. Take a nap or something.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please get a clue.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 28, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Solid response man, that really clears things up for me.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to clear things up for you at all – your armchair psychological diagnosis though – completely off- if you think i’m upset or bothered.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 28, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying they’re not trying to win now- every team tries to win ball games with the intention of winning a championship. Try asking any player in the league- they’re not “tanking” to get a high draft pick, those are just the fans and analysts talking. Players have pride. They’re going to want to win games.
They signed Brand because they needed a low post presence. Iguodala was resigned because he is an integral part of this team and a great player. It’s true- the purpose of these signings was to win ball games. The thing is, so is the drafting of Jrue Holiday. Best case scenario he comes in and contributes right away, worst case it takes him a couple years. After all, if you only sign or draft players to “win now,” you’re going to be in trouble when it’s time to win LATER. So with Brand they’ll give it all they got now, and when Brand is into his 30s, they’ll have a great nucleus of young talent coming into their own so they can win then too. Hopefully by then, they’ll also have stockpiled some nice young talent for the next generation as well.
There’s not a player in this draft or ANY draft for that matter that doesn’t need to improve greatly before stepping into this league and making an impact. Blake Griffin will have to improve to become a solid pro. That’s just the way it is. There’s too big a discrepancy between pro ball and college ball to just stay the same and be just as good as you were in college. Based on his talent and physical tools, Jrue Holiday has as good a shot to succeed as any. The rest is still unwritten, so we’ll find out what happens in a few years.
by ghsu on Jun 28, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can agree with all of this. I understand their thinking, but I would have rather had Lawson to help both now and later, because I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling yet. But I get what you’re saying, and you’re right, it all depends on what happens down the road.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just so it’s out there too, I really liked Lawson as well. I would have wanted the Sixers to draft him last year as well as this year… but the prospect of having a guy like Holiday pan out was too much to pass up. If Jrue was gone, Lawson would have been my pick in a heartbeat. I think Lawson can be a really, really nice player in this league, and he might always be better than Holiday offensively, who knows. For me though, what really sold this pick to me was the prospect of having a big point guard who has lots of offensive potential who could lock down other point guards because of his size. Who knows, maybe Lawson turns out to be the stud while Holiday busts, but maybe vice versa, yeah? I’m just happy and excited for the Sixers.
by ghsu on Jun 28, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has been quite a long time since we had a point guard who could really defend. If his offensive game catches up, it would be a beautiful thing to see.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
If we weren’t trying to win now, then why would we have signed Brand in the first place? This move contradicts the philosophy in place at the time of the Brand/Iguodala signings.
But I also think Brand gives us a chance to win a couple playoff series here and there — valuable experience for a young core. It was much better than not signing Brand and being in the lottery every year.
by jsams on Jun 28, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a really nice point. If Brand helps push this team into the playoffs and gets into some battles in the post season, it really helps the young guys later on. You always hear about teams being battle tested, and it would be amazing to have a team that’s been battle tested already when they’ll be entering their primes. You can’t teach experience, and there’s no substitute for it.
by ghsu on Jun 29, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s over valued when you core is SO young and developing personally – if that’s why he was signed it really was a waste of money and shouldn’t have been used. If they didn’t think they could contend for a title during Brans tenure (assuming his health) why sign him?
My free agency post has some ideas on what’s ‘good’ for next year – in my opinion the playoffs are not relevant
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 29, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only “win now” move the Sixers could have made in this draft was to somehow trade their pick for proven NBA talent. In no way would drafting Lawson or Maynor have been a “win now” move.
by JasonB on Jun 29, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few things:
1) We are not contenders this year no matter what and most likely will not be until Sam and Willie Green come off the books and give us some flexibilty to allow a front office not run by someone named Billy King to make smart moves. They know what they are doing. The jurys still out on EB but hes gonna have to be a big contributor during the window with our current players
2) Holiday does not even need to be a great true PG…he can be just a really good guard. Tweeners are fine for the Princeton offense. You dont need guys with the best vision and Ricky Rubio style flashy passes. You just need the guards to make the cuts theyre supposed to, dump the ball off to whoever its supposed to go to next, and be able to knock down the high percentage shot when they get it, whether its from 12 feet or long range.
Also, Dionte Christmas and Blake Ahearn were invited to the 76ers summer camp squads.
by jmorcate on Jun 27, 2009 3:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
drop igoudala
If he cant work with elton brand they trade him. I’d rather have an offense that works with elton brand as the concentrated point of the offense. if igoudala cant work with brand then drop him. i know this doesnt have alot to do with this article but its the turth!
by prestomania214 on Jun 27, 2009 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that’s awful
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 27, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday is not a Tweener
he is a point guard. Fact, no questions. Just because he played out of his position for a year does not make him a tweener. Just like when Swisher (sp) for the Yankees played a pitcher for one inning does not make him a letcher.
by DeanH on Jun 27, 2009 5:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike bourn
Nice job bringin the other opinion. However after my initial reaction i think im with jordan and john, i think he will contribute this year and start some point next year (second half most likely)
by tsteidel on Jun 27, 2009 6:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if i may add
please don not consider Jrue’s college numbers, as of today playing in a us collage means less than being benched in europe (jennings is an example). What is important it is the player’s iq and his potential and my impression is that jrue is better than lawson, maynor, maybe curry, but also a lot of other previous picks, who very much represent the typical american collage player, good show but not the knowledge of the game.
by apfan on Jun 27, 2009 7:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I haven't posted for a while...
Wanted to turn Bourn’s argument on its head for a second.
Since a potential future stud at PG who matches well age and talentwise with the entire roster except Brand (due to age)…
Maybe the issue was the Brand signing and not Holiday. I’m a an of what Brand could bring to this team, but he will make 35M his last 2 years from age 32-34. That will hamper the team financially for a PF who may or may not be playing at a high level.
At that point (2011-13) he will be surrounded by potentially a great group of 21-27 year old skilled athletes in or entering their prime.
You don’t have to be an avid Sesame St. viewer to see one of these things does not fit with the others?
I just wonder if admitting a misstep with Brand is a move that Ed can weather.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 27, 2009 9:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
BTW- would not even consider moving Brand until he ere-establishes his value. I’m not sure I want to move Brand at all- just think it was a bit of a miscalculation by Ed. Not because of talent of injury. More an issue of the thought they could look to contend built around Brand, Miller, Iguodala and a bunch of green players.
Basically signing Brand started a clock ticking to win now that was premature. The biggest risk being that urgency starts you down a road where you start trading away youth for lower ceiling vets, and yet are still not a legit contender.
Similarly am wary about moving Sam when he will have much more value in 12-18 months.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 27, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I’m not ready to write off the Brand signing at all, but to me, this seems like they’re not dedicated to it, or at least making this pick as a contingency plan. If they don’t sign an above average point guard to run this offense for two years then we’ll know which direction they’re going.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the Brand thing is as bad as everybody’s making it out to be. If he comes back healthy and plays well, I don’t think this will be a big deal anymore. His game’s not really based on athleticism, so it’s not like he’s going to decline with age as dramatically as some guys. If he has a good season, the Sixers are in a decent position — they can either keep him around or trade him for some good assets. It never hurts to have a veteran presence — especially one that is good in the half court.
I also think a lot of the talk around Brand is people wildly overrating Speights. I like Mo a lot, and I think he has tons of talent. In a couple years, he could be a big time player at the 4 or 5 for us. But he’s not even close to that yet, and it’s going to take a lot of work to get there. He certainly should get more minutes than last year, but it’s not time to jettison a proven player like Brand to make room for him just yet.
I totally agree with your below point about Sammy. For as much as we hate him, he IS a viable NBA player. He’s wildly over payed, has a horrible attitude and doesn’t want to play for the Sixers, but he actually can play. That’s why I’m not a fan of the Charlotte trade. If a contender suddenly needs a center, I could see them picking up the phone to talk to Ed. I can’t really say the same thing happening with Radmanovich (and obvously Nazr’s done). “Damn guys, we’ve got a pretty good team, but we just don’t have a power forward who can kinda-sorta shoot 3’s and is miserably bad at every other aspect of basketball — somebody call Philly!”
by zfg on Jun 27, 2009 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree for the most part. I’m not down on Brand. Just pointing out that he does not exactly fit with the age and style of the rest of the roster.
They could start blowing up the young core to get guys like Redd or VC to put with Brand and Iguodala, i just hope they resist that urge and stay with the youth movement.
Holiday reassures us that they are still looking long term.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 27, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading young guys for somebody like Redd would be an awful move. But yeah, drafting Holliday obviously proves they aren’t going into “win now” mode. Brand doesn’t quite fit in, I’ll give you that, but it doesn’t hurt to have veterans around, especially now that Miller’s on his way out the door. I’d rather have Speights, Smith and Thad learning about the NBA game from him than Sammy.
by zfg on Jun 27, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But we’ll see. I think Ed came in with the intention of contending right away, and this seems more like a lateral move for now, and a potential great one in 2-3 years. He claims he’s not moving Brand, but is basically throwing away a couple years of his deal so we’re mediocre. Obviously, we’ll see what happens.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
A lot of your argument seems to be based on the idea that the Sixers are in WIN NOW mode. So since they are in WIN NOW mode, why not get a guy who can help you RIGHT NOW in Lawson. But, no one expects Lawson to step in and start next year. The team repeatedly said they are not expecting to get an immediate starter. Lawson would likely be the backup PG, much like Holiday will be. So, now we are talking the next season, which would mean Holiday(with his tremendous work ethic, by all accounts) could be as “ready” to start as Lawson would have been. Meanwhile, he is also a better fit, because of his physical attributes and defensive abilities, then Lawson, who will need to be really special to overcome that height issue, especially when combined with the low release on his jumper.
And again, Holiday is not a “tweener” and you saying so is just plain inaccurate. What UCLA did was the same as what the Mavs did by playing Barea and Kidd together, or what the Bulls did when playing Rose & Hinrich at the same time, except UCLA did it from the start. Howland was trying to get his star recruit on the floor while also letting his senior pupil run the show. The fact that Holiday looked so uncomfortable off the ball should indicate that he is not a shoot-first scorer in a PG’s body, which is what the Tweener/Combo Guard label refers to.
Your other point is that if they are not in WIN NOW mode, then why get Brand? Here is the thing: IMO, Brand, if healthy, is a very good fit for this roster, especially with Speights or Smith as the other bigs. Even when he “gets old,” he can simply play center with Speights or Smith next to him, still creating a long and versatile front line.
This team’s window likely does not start to open until 2010-2011. Would Ed mind stealing a title like the 2003 Spurs did? Of course not, but the plan appears to be for the team to be learn to be competitive now so they can be contenders sooner rather then later.
by RSWKnight on Jun 28, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can agree with that mostly
But when he signed Brand and inked Iguodala to a big deal, it seemed like he was going for broke. If he’s solely focused on a title in 2 or 3 years, then that’s ok with me, it should just be consistent with all of his upcoming moves this offseason.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Jun 28, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going for broke by signing your own restricted free agent to a true market value deal and then signing a PF when the rest of your roster obviously isn’t ready?
Sure – that’s going for broke – going for broke is trading most of your young prospects for ray allen and kevin garnett.
What Stefanski did was just smart.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 28, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ed wanted the best of both wolds
He wanted to be competitive now while building a young core for the future.
That type of greed often bites you with low talent draft picks. But he has the DiLeo factor. he gets top ten talent with teens picks.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 28, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don’t think a rookie point guard, no matter how “NBA ready” he may be, is gonna lead you to a championship unless there’s some ridiculous talent around him. I would put Lawson’s chances of leading the Sixers to a title this season the same as Jrue’s — a solid 0% for both. As for Brand, it’s unfortunate that he’s getting older, but he did miss the last 2 seasons. If he comes back healthy, then there’s 2 less seasons on his odometer. Plus, the Sixers are obviously comfortable with not being in win now mode. If they were going for that, they wouldn’t have wanted their starting PG to be a rookie drafted outside the lottery — you’ve gotta trade for a veteran in that case, or go all-out to resign Miller.
by zfg on Jun 27, 2009 9:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed,
I was about to make the point that no matter how good he is, you have virtually a zero percent chance of winning a title with a rookie at the point, the same way that no rookie QB will win a Super Bowl. It just doesn’t happen – there’s too much adjustment.
by Saul on Jun 28, 2009 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the other vitally important thing here:
We’ve pretty well established that this is quite a young team, aside from Brand. But that’s OK: why do we need every single player to be under 26? Or even under 28 in 2 years? Think about it. Every championship team has a veteran or two on it. Having a highly skilled starter at an important position who can also provide some veteran leadership and mentoring for the younger players is not a bad thing. If Brand had been a 2- or 3-year contract, then yeah, you could interpret it as a win-now move. But this was a 6-year deal. I know there’s always been some acknowledgment that he might not last all 6 years here, but the fact that it’s 6 years at all indicates that ES was interested in having him around for some decent amount of time – meaning he realized that having a top PF locked up for six years might be useful. I’m just trying to make the point that having a single quality veteran is not a bad thing – indeed, it’s probably a good thing – for a team with championship aspirations. I don’t believe you can name a championship team that didn’t include an older veteran as a key cog.
The other thing: if he goes, who’s going to step in? It would have to be either Speights, who may never quite make it to Brand-like levels… or some other veteran. And there’s no guarantee that this replacement PF would be as good. So why not stick with what we have already locked up?
by Saul on Jun 28, 2009 7:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You make a good point
Especially when you think about the fact that if Speights(or Smith) develops, you can simply slide Brand to the center spot. There are only 3 real centers in the league anyway.
by RSWKnight on Jun 28, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you really can’t slide Brand to the center spot…unless you don’t care about rebounding at all
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 28, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with john...
there is still a major need for a center. However, having a somewhat older starting PF is not a bad thing. He was the best available, and TAFKAMB seems to be implying that if ES hadn’t been intent on winning NOW, he wouldn’t have made that signing. I think that’s not true: he took the best player at the position of greatest need when he was available. That speaks to smart GMing, not an unwillingness to wait to win.
by Saul on Jun 28, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree
Brand has the reach (9’2) and bulk to make up for his height and lack of explosive ups. Defense could be an issue, but I think next to a big PF he could rebound well at the center position.
he could play next to Speights or Smmith if either ever learned to play their size.
The big problem is playing him next to Young. But that is more an issue of Young at PF.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 28, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In vacuum, Brand at the 5 wouldn’t be that bad. I’m sure he could hold his own reasonably well with rebounding, though he’d have some defensive problems. However, both Speights and Thad are poor rebounders. Speights could improve, but I wouldn’t expect much from Thad in that department. In addition, you wouldn’t really have any shot blockers in there — Brand can block his own guy pretty well, but he won’t get many shots from the weak side of the defense.
by zfg on Jun 28, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to See Brand/Speights as the frontcourt
I’m just not sure Brand is healthy and Speights is good enough yet.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Jun 28, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Speights develops as a consistent defender and rebounder, he can easily play next to Brand. Position designation would be somewhat nebulous, but Brand, with a consistent rebounding Speights as a partner, would be very effective off the glass. You cannot play Brand & Young together, but Brand & Speights/Smith? In this era? Sure. There are only a small handful of real centers anyway.
by RSWKnight on Jun 29, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now speights is consistent at neither of those things – one hopes he develops both but there’s no guarantee – we’ll find out come this october
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 29, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
That’s why I said I could accept Brand at the 5 if Speights(or Smith) can become at least serviceable on the glass & defensively. Their length & athleticism combined with Brand’s strength, length and savvy could make that an effective combo/trio. But all that depends on the development of Speights & Smith. I’ve heard that Speights will be at Tim G’s development camp in Vegas, with Jrue. Smith, I l believe will be working out later this summer in ATL with Dala, Thad, Lou & Green.
by RSWKnight on Jun 29, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't want to play the 2
I believe he went to UCLA expecting Darren Collison to go pro. When Collison withdrew from the draft, it really messed up his situation.
by Shady is an Eagle! on Jun 29, 2009 1:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Real deal on Jrue.
I am not slamming you, but there are a few observations that you are dead wrong about Holiday in this post. I am an avid UCLA fan and I just wanted to update/correct your observations on him.
1. As many already said, he went to UCLA fully expecting Collison to jump to the NBA. When DC didn’t go, Howland had to play DC at the 1 and JH at the 2. Even though Holiday is the better PG, he could not play DC at SG and JH at PG. And there is no way that Howland was going to sit DC just so that JH could get better at his natural position.
2. You are correct in stating that JH outside shot needs work but you are wrong in stating that he has weak ball handling skills. He is a very strong ball handler and can dribble through traffic being double and triple teamed. You will learn very fast that he can stop on a dime and cross over at any given moment. Ball handling may be his biggest strength!
3. Westbrook didn’t start as a sophmore because of DC going down. Westbrook was the starting SG from the first game preseason. He was a starter all year. I don’t know where you got that one from.
4. Holiday is at his best at PG. He will not be a SG in the league. Again, the only reasons that Westbrook and Holiday played the 2 is because Collison was not going to be the SG or on the bench so that Holiday/Westbrook could play PG. Howland wanted to win and his best shot at that would be to have Collison and Westbrook/Holiday on the floor together.
5. Holiday’s number or lack of do not show his true ability. When he develops a good midrange/outside shot he will be an above average starting PG in the league. His defense makes him just as valuable as his PG skills. In a year or 2 he will develop into a beast on both sides of the ball. And he is a very standup person off of the court. He will become well liked by the fans in no time. 1-2 years from now he will be a fan favorite. You will be very happy with what you got at the 17th pick of a very bad draft.
by DirkT on Jul 4, 2009 10:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
your words of encouragement make me feel a lot more at ease with our pick, hopefully he developes as fast Thad, or even faster!
SIDE NOTE: Is there a site to watch summer league Orlando?
by guitarmouse35 on Jul 5, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
go to the magic.com/sixers
Thanks to the UCLA guy for summarizing clearly what a lot of others had been saying.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 7, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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