Links: Princeton Offense and Sammy D
by Jordan Sams on May 31, 2009 1:55 PM PDT
63 comments
Kate Fagan gives her CliffNotes version of the Princeton Offense, emphasizing the importance of a pure shooter at the two-guard.
Miller, with his ability to read backdoor cuts and deliver pinpoint passes, would effectively run this offense if his starting shooting guard can actually shoot. If the Sixers retain Miller and again place Green beside him, this offense, which is predicated on drawing out the defense and quickly changing direction, will become a little too cozy inside the paint.
No defense will deny Green the basketball.
This prompts an interesting question. Let's say Miller re-signs and a pure shooter like, let's say -- Anthony Parker is brought in to play the two. What happens to the starting lineup? Does Iguodala start at the three and Thad comes off the bench? Does Thad start at the four, moving Elton to the five?
It seems like a lose-lose situation given the current pieces. The Sixers can go one of three different ways with the starting lineup:
#1 (Point Guard), Iguodala, Thad, Brand, (Center) -- which means they would have zero pure shooters on the floor.
#2 (Point Guard), (Shooter), Iguodala, Brand, (Center) -- which means Thad would have to come off the bench.
#3 (Point Guard), (Shooter), Iguodala, Thad, Brand -- which leaves them with a 6'8'' center.
So maybe it's not a lose-lose after all. After thinking aloud and going through all the different scenarios, I think option #2 jumps out as the obvious choice. You have your point guard, you have your pure shooter, you have a significant size and rebounding advantage with Brand at the four AND you have Thaddeus Young coming off the bench in a Lamar Odom-type role.
It's not perfect, but reality is, Iguodala and Thad play the same position. It's not out of the question that you could play them at either the 2-3 or the 3-4, but I feel the negatives out-weigh the positives in both scenarios.
I suppose you could play Iguodala at the two and rely on him to be the primary ball-handler while the pure-shooter plays point guard, but I still prefer option #2.
Give me your ideal starting lineup next year, along with the 6th man. Go!
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Two more links via Bob Ford. The first one is much like Fagan's, but instead of focusing on the guards, Ford focuses on how the front court players fit into the Princeton Offense.
One of the ideas on the blackboard was using Brand as a high-post center, which takes advantage of his exceptional passing ability and his short-range jump shot, and also allows him a 10-foot head start on getting back on defense.
That would clear out the lane for the athletic slashers on the roster and, at least in theory, help create the quick, high-movement offense Stefanski and Jordan are seeking.
That is one possibility, but as stated above, wouldn't a 6'8'' center not only hurt the inside defense, but also the rebounding?
The title of Ford's second article says it all: Why Sammy Can't Play. No question, the player affected most by the Eddie Jordan hiring is Sam Dalembert. I still think he could provide valuable minutes off the bench, but he's shown year-in and year-out that he's not down with limited minutes. Therefore; Stefanski is going to have to find a way to get rid of the Haitian Sensation, and it looks like it will be harder than I originally thought.
Dalembert is owed $23.5 million over the two seasons remaining on his contract. That's bad enough, but he was also given a "trade kicker" clause that calls for a 15 percent increase in that salary if he is traded.
Yikes.
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See, I read that article earlier and the reference to green still being the starting line up kind of aggravated me, because anyone who truly covers the sixers should know that there’s only one reason Willie Green was a starter, and that isn’t the optimum situation, or even what the sixers want.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 2:53 PM PDT reply actions
Agree.
There’s absolutely zero chance Green starts for the Sixers next year — barring another huge injury of course.
So the whole article loses ‘credibility’ for me because Fagan should know better
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
It made me think about the lineup possibilities.
I’m convinced that the best possible scenario is Thad coming off the bench. I believe you disagree?
I can see how that it is a good idea. Especially since him fresh off the bench can provide a definite spark when the team is struggling. From what I’ve seen, he tends to shoot a lot or attack the basket, which can be good when he is on and bad when he and the rest of the team struggles.
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
I think Thad will be much better under Jordan.
Maybe he’ll get some plays run for him. Last year he’d start out games on fire, then disappear. A good offense and a smart coach should help prevent that.
Our bench would also look pretty nice if we had (Pick 17), Lou, Thad and Speights/Sam/Smith coming off it.
Pick 17 would provide point guard skills (hopefully), Lou, Thad and Speights can all score and Smith or Dalembert (depending on who starts at center) would provide solid defense and rebounding.
Depending on how the off-season is managed, we could be looking at 9-10 deep without Reggie and Bill.
“I think Thad will be much better under Jordan”
ook yea i defintely thought that said thad will be much better than Jordan.. as in micheal jordan lol
http://www.libertyballers.com/
Thad will be better under any coach next year assuming he works
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Please don't take this the wrong way
because I respect your opinion but option two makes me want to throw up. I despise the idea of our second best player coming off the bench. Out of the ones you mentioned I like #1 the best.
What do you guys think about possibly having Speights start at PF or Smith at C?
fightlockdown.com
Manu Ginobli comes off the bench in San Antonio…works quite well for them…not saying it’s ideal, but it can work…
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
More complicated in LA since they alternate starting line ups
and odom is UFA this year
and Trevor Ariza is VERY interesting
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Trevor Ariza is ridiculous.
We could do the same with Thad. When we play bigger teams, bring him off the bench and when we play smaller teams, move him to the four and Brand to the five.
yeah
I almost think it should vary depending on the team we’re playing. We should try to match up with them.
The draft and off-season moves will make our options more clear cut.
Roadrunner to Philly!
by guitarmouse35 on May 31, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Dalembert could actually be a solid bench player.
He could be for us what Birdman is for the Nuggets. However; he’s making about 8 million more than he should, and he’d complain if he came off the bench.
No he couldn’t – he has no work ethic, or energy – and he’s a selfish twat
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually wouldn’t have a problem with Dalembert being an overpaid role player if he were willing to act like one.
Me neither.
Because you can’t control his pay. In a perfect world, he’d just play his 15 minutes a game and give us some shot blocking off the bench, then peace out when his contract’s up. Something tells me that won’t happen though.
But that’s the problem – history indicates that
A. Sam is not a team player
B. Sam thinks he’s a starter
C. Sam thinks there’s nothing wrong with his game
D. Sam will whine to the media if things don’t go his way, with O’brien AND DiLeo
He’s not going to be a happy role player
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
If Speights were to start then Brand would move over to C. I meant ot put that in my original post
fightlockdown.com
I wouldn't mind.
I just don’t like the idea of having another starting lineup w/o a shooter. It was torture at times.
Sammy
If, If, If Sammy could play limited minutes, learn to play basketball, he could become an important asset to the sixers. But, I personally think that is an impossible dream.
I am having a hard time getting excited w/ this coach choice. But, I think I am mainly concerned about our backcourt next year. I hope we make a trade that involves either Willie, Reggie or preferably Sammy.
Last, question. Could someone explain why Willie is called Bill?
If Dalembert played hard and put in the time in the offseason/practices, he would actually be a good center. Even given that he will never be an offensive talent, his athleticism, shot blocking, rebounding and defense could be a big asset. When Sammy was trying to get traded, he actually put in a couple games where he looked dominant on the defensive end (win vs. Rockets comes to mind)… The problem is, we know he’s not going to put in that effort on a consistent basis. My hope is that if he isn’t traded in the offseason, he will play like that at the beginning of the season so we can ship him the hell out of town (which he wants too). If somebody thinks they can fix the problems between his ears, more power to them — if they do it, they’ll have a pretty good player.
Bill Green is Willie’s alter-ego where he doesn’t suck. We call him that in hopes of making that guy appear.
by zfg on May 31, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes about Bill, except it's more so like the groundhog effect.
Sometimes Bill sees his shadow and gets scared…then six more weeks of suckfest basketball.
I would run Brand and Speights in the frontcourt together, let Brand take the tougher assignment. Dala, Thad and the winner of the battle between free agent/rookie guard/Williams fill out the lineup.
Actually, I would have M16 and Smith fight it out for that spot, and sign Courtney Sims from the D-League as a backup big.
My only problem with Speights at the 5 is that he is (at least right now) a fouling machine. He picks them up like it’s his job. I guess at least it shows he’s trying for the shot block, and maybe he can make some big strides in the offseason. However, as much as I like the idea of getting Sammy off the court as much as possible, that pretty much kills our ability to trade him, so I don’t know on that front.
Sammy not playing
That is the one big point that we often forget. He will be worthless to us this year as a player and trade value. I guess my thought above is not the best for the team. We need to hope that Sammy decides to play like he can play, be dominate and hope we all get mad when they trade him.
Obviously if we could trade him before the season starts, that would be nice. However, I just don’t see that happening. We pretty much need to hope he plays well with the hope of being traded and/or the center for a contender gets hurt. That scenario might actually be best as we could get some value for him, but it’s also obviously a bigger risk since there’s no guarantee that it would happen.
If sam doesn’t get traded – sam will most likely be the starter come the beginning of the season…
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 8:46 PM PDT reply actions
And he should be.
Gives him a chance to boost what little trade value he has, and keeps him somewhat happy.
He’s also an upgrade over M16 and Smith defensively.
He seems to bring the team down and that is not good for any team. Try to trade him over the summer. If he can’t be traded, bench him and give him limited role minutes. If he whines about that and doesn’t perform, stephon marbury his a$$ (pun was definitely intended with dollar signs). He’ll sit there and cry on the bench while still thinking he’s a good player.
You can’t expect to benefit from every player you sign.
That’s ridiculous if you don’t htink yo’re going to benefit from a guy – don’t sign him – again i point to the spurs who get production out of matt freaking bonner and roger mason jr
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 1, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I meant after he`s been signed. They may have thought he was going to produce pre-signing. However, those thoughts don`t always come to fruition. That`s what I meant.
I`m not sure why you chose to interpret it that way. As if you actually thought I meant they were going to sign a guy knowing he was going to suck balls.
Bad teams make a higher percentage of bad signings, good teams make many less bad signings
good teams fire people who are bad at their jobs
the sixers/flyers keep them on for years beyond when they should be.
Signing guys like sam and willie to long term deals was an extension of ed sniders inability to fire those who should be fired…stupidity and guys keeping their jobs too long is inherent in the sixers
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 1, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
If Ford can keep writing articles like that he easily will surpass fagan
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on May 31, 2009 8:59 PM PDT reply actions
1. Ty Lawson/Eric Maynor/Jonny Flynn
2. Andre Iguodala
3. Thaddeus Young
4. Elton Brand
5. Marreese Speights
BENCH
1. Lou Williams
2. Jason Smith
3. Marcus Thornton/Jermaine Taylor/Dionte Christmas
PARAGUAY
1. Samuel Dalembert
2. Bill Green
3. Reggie Evans
Make it happen, Ed.
President and Personal Escort of the Gerry McNamara Fan Club
my "ideal" starting line up, etc.
1. Miller (hopefully) or point guard prospect or if possible, replacement point guard after with miller sign n’ trade.
2. Iguodala
3. Thad-town
4. Brand
5. mediocre mcgee who can simply follow instructions, stay out of the lanes, and defend
hopefully this can be done by trading sam, reggie, and bill in a historic three-man crap package. I heard the clippers will have too many big men after the draft.
I know the sixers are looking for a shooter, and I know people will disagree with this, but I actually feel comfortable with iguodala playing the 2 guard. I saw a lot of improvement with his jumper over the past season, and that can not be ignored. I think as he gets older he can improve even more. Thad can improve as well. Yes, they are not pure shooters, but this is not exactly something the league has an abundance of. Oftentimes, having a pure shooter comes at the expense of foregoing a good defender. Let’s see what happens at the beginning of the season and if everything fails, stephanski will have to suck it up and make a bold trade.
I'm ok with Iggy and Thad starting too.
However; only if a pure shooter — like Korver — is coming off the bench. Every team needs at least one shooter.
PG: Andre Miller / Jrue Holiday
SG: Andre Iguodala
SF: Thaddeus Young
PF: Elton Brand
C: Jason Smith
6th Man: Size Small – Lou Williams
6th Man: Size Large – Marreese Speights
Traded for beads & blankets: Willy Green & Sammy Dalembert
Iggy as the SG
I really don’t like that idea. I’d much prefer if we find a starting SG and have Thad come off the bench.
by phillyhoosfan on Jun 1, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
And here I am
thinking that my choice at the center position would have been the one people would disagree with.
SGs and Cs
There’s a lot of debate regarding whether or not to try resigning Miller. If he walks, it gives us a bit of money to play with… hopefully sign a free agent backup SG who can knock down a 3.
I’d like to see something like this…
PG Stephen Curry (trade #17, Speights or Lou, and maybe throw in Green or Evans if necessary)
SG Iggy
SF Thad
PF Brand
C tough one… probably Sammy, though Jason needs to get solid back-up minutes. Best scenario is some kind of trade for a third party… big tough-minded center with good basketball IQ.
I'd love that lineup.
Only because of Curry at the one. As much as I like it, the likelihood of it happening is .01%.
Yeah...
I hope Ed’s exploring it, though… and that we somehow get lucky.
If Miller stays and they try to start Miller and Iggy together in the backcourt, we’re setting ourselves up for failure… or, at the very least, more mediocrity. I can’t watch another year of Sixers basketball in the absence of someone who can actually shoot a 3. There are teams out there whose 4th best shooter is better than our best shooter… whoever that might be.
With that said, I’d like to somehow be able to start Iggy, Thad, and Brand, which means the shooting has to come from the point guard (and either Thad or Iggy… whomever is hot on a given night). Interestingly, with Jason Smith at the center, you get some shooting from the five spot. True, he can’t guard the Dwight Howards of the world, but who can? He can be an Okur type center and help draw the other team’s center away from the lane to give Brand a little more room to work.
I think Smith is going to be nice next year.
He’s nothing spectacular, but he’s a really solid player. There was one point during their rookie seasons which I thought he was a better pick than Thad.
Two possibilities I was thinking
If we draft a PG:
1. Draft pick (Lawson, Flynn, Maynor?)/ Miller (if re-signed)
2. Iguodala
3. Thad
4. Brand
5. Smith/Speights
I’ve been thinking about the Princeton offense and how it doesn’t need a traditional line-up. At the end of Jordan’s first press conference during his interview, Stefanski noted that other teams have combo guards, point- shooting guards. He then said the sixers have a point- forward in Andre Iguodala. I think this line-up, although unlikely, is a definite possibility:
1. Iguodala
2. Draft pick (Terrence Williams, or someone who can shoot)
3. Thad
4. Brand
5. Speights/Smith
From what I understand about the Princeton offense, you don’t need a true point guard. You just need someone who can bring the ball down the court who has decent court vision to start the offense.
Roadrunner to Philly!
Andre can't be 1
I know a true pg is not truly needed in the princeton style offense. But Andre would be horrible at the 1 spot. And get sammy d out of there.
But why
would andre be horrible at the 1? I’m just wondering the reasoning why not.. he has good court vision, can dribble well. what else is needed for this style of play?
Roadrunner to Philly!
by guitarmouse35 on Jun 2, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Cause he said so
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 3, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
well are you opposed to andre playing the point?
Roadrunner to Philly!
by guitarmouse35 on Jun 3, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Did I say anywhere that I wasn’t, I’ve advocated Andre at the point longer than you’ve probably drawn breath…i was more referring to the original commenter who makes his broad grandiose statements but won’t back em up with anything resembling logic or facts.
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 3, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I know you were referring to the previous comment,
and I was asking a simple question, not to be taken the wrong way. You gave me your answer in the above comment, and that’s all I was trying to get, an answer.
Roadrunner to Philly!
by guitarmouse35 on Jun 3, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
my team
my team runs the princeton offense for basketball. its pretty cool how the sixers are gonna run it. put kareem rush in!
Rush is not coming back
thankfully.
Roadrunner to Philly!
by guitarmouse35 on Jun 3, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
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