Sixers beat Nets, barely.
by Jordan Sams on Nov 11, 2009 8:04 PM PST
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PrintUntil further notice, the Sixers are a below average basketball team and there are very few games they "should" win, but this was one of them. For a team with as many talented players as the Sixers, it shouldn't take 48 minutes to eek out a win against a depleted Nets team, who came into tonight's game with an 0-7 record and only 8 players on their active roster. I'm not taking anything away from the Nets because they are an NBA team and what they lacked in health and talent, they made up with effort and team ball. I guess that's what it comes down to; the Sixers have some good players, but they aren't a good team -- yet.
That said, they still won the game and evened their record at 4-4. But after eight games, their record isn't what concerns me; it's how they've gotten there.
Here are a few things we can agree on after eight games.
- According to rumors -- mostly from disgruntled Wizards fans -- Eddie Jordan was tough on rookies. Well, they're no longer rumors. From not playing Jrue during a freakin' pre-season game because he was afraid Nate Robinson would damage his psyche to pulling Jrue after one rookie mistake, and sitting him for the remainder of the game, Eddie has done nothing to disprove the rumors. It'd be one thing if he was sitting Jrue in favor of a legit backup point guard, but he's playing Royal Ivey instead. Come on now. Rookies make mistakes, and Jrue shouldn't be expected to play perfect in order to stay on the court.
- Elton Brand is done. I'm tired of waiting. We've made enough excuses for him. It's time to accept the fact that he's a rich man's Reggie Evans, with a higher basketball IQ and less hustle. He can't finish around the rim, and I cringe every time he takes a jump shot.
- Marreese Speights needs to replace Sam in the starting lineup. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: M16 is the Sixers most talented offensive player. He's not the best defender -- so what. What he brings to the table on the offensive end heavily out-weighs what he doesn't bring on the defensive end.
Player of the game: Marreese Speights
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I posted this on DF by accident.....
I agree 100%. Definitely we are not a good team. While it is said, a win is a win, this is getting old very quickly.
I am not willing yet to give up on Brand, however. I still believe he needs atleast 20 games. If this poor shooting continues, we got problems. Big ones. But, based upon what I have heard about Elton, I think he will rebound within the next month.
While it is still early, the sixers play down to a team but on other hand, they also play up to a team. Coach Jordan lost the Sun’s game. Very poor rotations continue.
What have you heard about Elton that makes you think he’ll turn it around?
by Jordan Sams on Nov 12, 2009 12:31 AM PST up reply actions
concerning Brand
My thinking is just that Brand is in good shape, just not NBA shape. But I think he’ll improve. As for finishing around the rim, if this doesn’t get better he should at least be able to adjust his game and get better with his jump shots. I know it’s hard to consider when you’re watchin pathetic offensive play, but we have to keep in mind the guy only played 29 games in the last two years before this season.
One positive this year
Thad and Speights- who were the best offensive players last year- are no longer secondary options on offense.
They may only be 21-22, but the team needs to build the offense around them and not make them secondary to Iguodala and Brand (or Miller last year.)
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
BTW, per 82games
29% of Brand’s “close” inside shots have been blocked (compared to 11% for Speights and 8% for Sam.)
That is just very :(
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
Does 82games have a stat for up-fakes under the hoop? I’m would bet 85% of the time Elton gets the ball under the hoop he up-fakes 3 or more times, then gets blocked. He looks exactly like Reggie Evans on offense — no exaggeration.
by Jordan Sams on Nov 12, 2009 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
That is one benefit I am seeing to this Princeton approach, it is helping M16 to become a more complete offensive player. He is getting better at passing and defense while he is offensively off the charts. I love what him and Dala are doing out there
by MojoPharoah on Nov 11, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions
Speights isn’t he most fundamentally sound on defense, but he’s good enough to be average. On offense, he has it all, and who knew he had court vision and passing skillz?
by Jordan Sams on Nov 12, 2009 12:39 AM PST up reply actions
I agree on featuring Thad and Speights. They have the most in their repertoire unlike Iguodala and Lou, who can’t shoot jumpers consistently. Sadly, it’ll never happen for the same reason Iguodala, a 60-something percent free throw shooter, takes the technical foul shots.
by Jordan Sams on Nov 12, 2009 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
Speights should start, see how everyone comes around to my way of thinking eventually? Just accept it from the beginning and we’ll all get along so much better :)
I know I have this dichotomy with Brand and Jordan since I’ll preach patience with Brand but be ready to throw Jordan under the bus, but I think they’re also different situations.
2 years without playing a lot of NBA games, Brand isn’t in NBA game shape like someone said up above. He’s not a 6’10 power forward, he’s a 6’8 power forward with an obscene reach and wingspan. I still wonder what he really is ‘great’ at versus what he’s expected to be great at by the fans…but I still think he’s rounding into shape and confidence and those pump fakes are evidence of that still…I hope they’ll decrease as he realizes his ankle can take it and his shoulder won’t break.
On the other hand, Mr Eddie Jordan who won’t change the starting line up because they were ‘earned’ in training camp and it’s a ‘sensitive’ matter doesn’t think that sitting down a 19 year old kid for the rest of the game for a bad play or two is going to send any sort of negative message to said kid, especially after playing a great game against Phoenix (albeit Jordan substituted badly with Jrue in that game too). If you believe in this ‘psyche’ stuff, giving a kid 4:15 and then pulling him for a mistake and benching him the rest of the way when defense (his natural strong suit) at the point guard position might have helped can’t be good for the long term development or self-confidence of a Jrue Holliday, to believe in himself that he can play at this level. Kids make mistakes, rookies make mistakes, if Jordan continues to send the message that one mistake and you sit, then Holliday is going to over think every moment he’s on the floor, he’ll be so worried about screwing up that he’ll stop relying on his instincts, it’s not a good thing I see….especially when guys with much moe experience make much stupider more frequent mistakes and don’t get sit down by Coach Jordan.
I’m done with Coach Jordan, I’m shortly going to be done with Ed Stefanski, but I’m ok with Brand…for now…I still think he has a chance, but Jordan has just shown what others told us he would do but we had to see for our own eyes.
Eddie Jordan will break Jrue Holliday.
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 7:00 AM PST reply actions
The refusal to play Jrue is even worse because it’s not like Willie Green and Roy Ivey are guys you’re dying to get on the floor. It would be one thing if they had an established backup at the PG position, but Jrue is probably better than either of those guys RIGHT NOW, much less talking about potential.
And Willie and Ivey are both most likely no longer on the roster when (if) this team becomes relevant again.
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
Disagree
Definitely no longer on the roster. Until they leave or are DNP CD, we will not be relevant.
Never undestimate the mojo of willie green and his blackmail abilities
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
And just to make the philly sports day a little worse – from Stephen A Smith
Fyi…..the reports are true. Today at 12 Noon I RETURN TO THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER as a full-time General Sports Columnist. Details later!
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 7:04 AM PST reply actions
Yes, I have this avatar for a weak after the choke job the eagles put up on sunday night
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
I have more problems with Eddie Jordan than the players. He is slowly coming around on his rotations, playing Holliday more and Ivey less, Sam less and Speights more.
Iguodala could be a much higher scorer than he is. I’d like to see him just take over a game for once and assert himself. As Young gets it together, and Brand gets it together, the Sixers will have a very effective front-line, with speed and power.
The Sixers have a problem with minutes. I want to see Elton get more time, but I also want to see more PT for Speights and Smith. I think Sam should have to demonstrate that he’s better than Smith, and Jordan should experiment with him in the starting line-up.
Willie Green is putting up a good fight holding Jrue Holiday out of the first back-up guard spot, but I think he is ahead of Ivey now.
Really, I think the Sixers are getting good shots but haven’t been making them. With Thad, Andre and Lou putting up points the Sixers should be in most games anyway. With some contributions by Speights and Brand and Smith, they should be able to beat most teams. As they become more consistent on offense, they will develop some confidence. They still need to work on attacking a zone.
I really don’t care about Iguodala PPG average, sure it’ll get him national recognition but he’s one of the best ALL AROUND players in the game, does everything very well and he should stick with what’s working.
So you had no problem with holliday’s use last night in the nets game?
Willie Green sucks – and always has and always will
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
Do I have this right?
Jrue had all pre-season to earn his minutes for the real season and any stathead can see he didn’t make the case. So what we’re arguing for here now is that a 19 year old mid first round pick with negligible high-level experience at point guard and a proclivity for turnovers should be getting serious and frequent minutes.
We’re also saying that the vast majority of NBA coaches would definitely keep a rookie in with hardly any experience in his role on the floor after he’s made a bad mistake. Yep. Jordan’s real weird there.
We’re also saying that 7-8 games in, there’s guaranteed no more opportunities to give Jrue. That the excuse for any poor play in the future by Jrue is already set up from now because he’s basically been psychologically destroyed by not getting minutes in the first few games of his rookie season even though he hasn’t proven very reliable yet (and with at least one other more reliable vet available).
We’re also ignoring Jordan’s talking Jrue up in the media (“secret weapon”). He must not be able to recognize potential or give praise.
And that the only possible reasonable reason for not playing Jrue more at this point of the season MUST be because Jordan hates rookies (or an he’s an idiot, or blahblah).
Definitely. Definitely.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
Me
I like the coach’s approach (if this is indeed it): keep pressure off the kid. let the vets prove they can handle the pressure better than the kid. the team shouldn’t have to depend on the contributions of it’s third-string point guard to get wins.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
My issue with this is that both Ivey and Green are well below average players, and neither of them have any upside. So even if Jrue sucks, he’s really not going to be worse than either of those two, AND he’s got upside. Beyond that, if by some miracle the Sixers are playing meaningful basketball late in the season, the fact that they don’t have a real backup PG is gonna hurt. If Jrue gets some minutes, maybe he can develop into that guy. And even if he doesn’t, it’s not like he’s taking minutes away from players who have a future with the team.
at this stage
i’d say green is basically the right fit for the job. he earned it in preseason and he’s been doing a decent job of it so far. while i agree the long term is def jrue, i think there’s a lot to be said for trying to establish a good rhythm. we have all kinds of time for jrue. the first 7-8 games aren’t going to break him. let him ease his way in, let the coach pick the best spots for him while he figures out the steadiest rotation he can put out there. people keep forgetting he’s 19 and didn’t play point guard last year. you’re going to consistently put him out there against nba-level competition night after night? why risk it so soon? what’s the bloody hurry??
ivey, however, is a different story. i’m sure we’ll see things develop as they should. we are not privvy to everything the coach (or team) sees/knows.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
I never said Jrue should take all of Green’s minutes, just all of Ivey’s and some of Green’s minutes — to the point where he plays 8-10 minutes every night, and gets no more DNP-CDs.
I'm sher
it’s gonna happen. I’m just ok with a little later than sooner. He’s 19, one of the youngest cats in the league (if not the). There’s still time ;-) Please step away from the panic button :)
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Please look at your history – jordan has done this before – how many rookies blossomed under eddie jordan.
I’ll wait while you find one.
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
I’d say you’re completely and totally bassackward – willie green is nothing more than a 9th guy on a good nba team with no future on the sixers if they choose to content – he should be put out to pasture
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
i don't disagree
with you on that. but, so far, he’s steadier than green in this role. it seems obvious jordan’s placing a premium on taking care of the ball, and it’s quite reasonable to suggest jrue hasn’t earned his trust in that dept yet. (vs green at least)
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
Green is shooting guard…a bad one a mediocre one…and in no way a part of the future…people need to look beyond the wins and losses this season (in my mind) because it’s not about this season – this team isn’t going to win jack…the longer it takes jrue to develop the longer it takes him to contribute…and he’s already a better defender than sam and ivery
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
You’re not paying attention to how the sixers are playing or how Jordan is handling Jrue or HOW HES PLAYED when given the minutes…
We’re also saying that the vast majority of NBA coaches would definitely keep a rookie in with hardly any experience in his role on the floor after he’s made a bad mistake. Yep. Jordan’s real weird there.
That’s not what anyone said – what was said was DONT BENCH HIM THE REST OF THE GAME – he didn’t shoot anyone he didn’t punch anyone in the kidneys – he held on tot the ball too long – what you’re telling a guy is any mistake you make – you sit the rest of the game and that’s fracking asinine.
The USAGE PATTERN for Jrue HOlliday (especially when defense is needed) is asinine
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
what was said was DONT BENCH HIM THE REST OF THE GAME
dude, that’s a common move for NBA head coaches. happens awwlll the time. hell, there’re vets who get benched balance of game for a mistake. if jrue’s going to be twisted b/c of that this early in his career, he was never cut out for the nba to begin with. i’m giving both of them more credit.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
A. I don’t care so much if it’s a ‘common move’
B. Common wisdom isn’t always right
C. Other teams have better optoin than royal fucking ivey
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
mighty fan
of you to hold coach to standards above even the most successful in the biz. if you can say popovich or phil jackson haven’t been real tough on rookies, then i’ll shaddap. otherwise, i can’t see why his management of jrue over 7-8 games constitutes a firing offense.
i wonder if this is just displaced anger over jrue’s not being clearly better than ivey and willie. don’t fret it. he’s 19. didn’t play point last year. didn’t blow anyone’s socks off in the off-season. let him ease into it. he’ll get his shots and he’ll get better bit by bit.
THERE.
IS.
NO.
CAUSE.
FOR.
ALARM.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
(on the jrue front)
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
How many minutes is Dajuan Blair averaging right now?
You play the best players you have – pure and simple – and jrue holiday is better than royal ivey – now and forever..
it’s not about how you treat rookies it’s about how you treat your best players and jordan has a BAD HISTORY with rookies (still waiting for one name – got it yet?)
If you have some sort of actual evidence as opposed to you ‘everyone does it’ without any supporting facts – please present it
I’ve seen the evidence that jordan sucks with rookies – have you? Not just in Philly – in washington to – if you haven’t then go find it
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
blair? are you kidding me?
it’s beyond ludicrous to compare blair to jrue. blair has a history of beasting in college (historic levels at that) and kicked plenty ass in both summer league and pre-season. he forced pop to play him even tho he was leary of it.
your “evidence” that jordan “sucks” with rookies is based purely on how he’s treated jrue. that’s it. you believe that’s sufficient, while i, of sound mind, do not. you can look at the review done at DF if you want a counter-argument. however, i’m not here to defend coach’s treatment of rookies. i’m talking specifically about this kid.
if jrue can’t even outshine ivey’s measley career numbers between summer league and pre-season, excuse me while i give coach the benefit of the doubt a little longer.
i believe coach will make the right moves, just as he’s done with speights, when he’s got more confidence in jrue. not before, and not due to any hollerin and screamin from blog visionaries (my god man, have you even coached a grade school team?). that said, i’ll bet it comes soon (re ivey). you watch.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
your "evidence" that jordan "sucks" with rookies is based purely on how he’s treated jrue. that’s it. you believe that’s sufficient, while i, of sound mind, do not. you can look at the review done at DF if you want a counter-argument. however, i’m not here to defend coach’s treatment of rookies. i’m talking specifically about this kid.
Completely and totally incorrect, my evidence is based on Jordans history with rookies throughout his coaching career…not just with Jrue – but you’ve demonstrated how worth while it is to engage in discussion with you…there’s information out there but obviously you don’t care about the facts you just want to argue.
Throwing out random names like poppovich and jackson are pointless – you probably still think that Larry Brown doesn’t play rookies as much as other coaches (which has already been disproven by an excellent blogger)
if jrue can’t even outshine ivey’s measley career numbers between summer league and pre-season, excuse me while i give coach the benefit of the doubt a little longer.,You’ve been presented with evidence that Jrue is already out performing Ivey WHEN IT MATTERS, and you choose to ignore it.
From now on, your new screen name is rickypryor and I don’t have to answer you anymore because obviously you don’t care about facts – just arguing and being right.
Next time try coming armed with one fact and when presented with evidence against your argument ignoring it is not a valid tactic
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
and i think i'll call you mr. shiny head
Completely and totally incorrect, my evidence is based on Jordans history with rookies throughout his coaching career
Ha! Such as…? You want me to provide “evidence” and you’ve provided none. Not too long ago you agreed with me that there is no conclusive evidence Jordan has a bad track record with rookies. Does the tin foil lining in your baseball cap affect memory? Brian and DF did the breakdown. Refresh your memory if you like.
You’ve been presented with evidence that Jrue is already out performing Ivey WHEN IT MATTERS, and you choose to ignore it.
Ha again! You, the master of “small sample size” now want to throw that out vs Ivey’s career numbers. I know you’d love to paint me into some Ivey-lover corner, but that’s unfortunately not the deal.
Loookit, it’s simple. Jrue didn’t wow anyone in the months before the season started and coach knows what he’s getting out of Ivey and Willie (who proved he can take care of the ball). Jrue, in very limited minutes, did ok in his first outing; time doubled and he did pretty well with that; got even more time in his third outing and did well with that; last outing, a substantial regression. them’s the facts,too.
If you take that as your winning evidence that Jordan’s “bad” with rookies, that’s your perogative. There’s one born every minute and tin foil’s always recyclable.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Jrue had all pre-season to earn his minutes for the real season and any stathead can see he didn’t make the case.
Jrue: (per 36) 15 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.3 steals, 4.6 turnovers on 46% shooting, 50% from three, and 79% from the line.
Royal: (per 36) 9 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 0.3 steals, 4.3 turnovers, on 36% shooting, 0% from three, and 75% from the line.
Tell me why Jrue didn’t prove he deserves more minutes than Royal Ivey again?
by Jordan Sams on Nov 12, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
fair point, tho by “pre-season” i did mean the whole shebang, so that means summer league, too. royal’s career numbers are better than that. a 19yr mid first round rook with little high-level reps at his position is going to really have to wow a coach to knock out an established player in terms of what he can count on.
speights didn’t blow people away in summerleague/preseason so he plays behind sam (who did have a good preseason, remember). but a few games in, things are showing differently, so we see coach making some adjustments in playing time (both how long and when).
jrue’s turn will come as he proves himself more consistent in his overall output. he’s going to have to do well with the opportunities as they come, but if he does ok, i’m ready to believe coach isn’t a half-wit and will increase his burn.
we’re kinda sounding like coach is sitting on a kevin garnett or lebron or something. it’s not like that. yet.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
The coach sat the rookie against THE KNICKS cause he claimed the psyche couldn’t handle nate robinson or chris duhon.
Do you think any NBA player EVER woudl have feared Chris Duhon and Nate RObinson?
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
only the ones
who don’t have a track record of taking good care of the ball.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
He’s been in the league all of 22 seconds – he has no track record of anything
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
wait, are you a witness for the defense or prosecution?
i trust for now that coach has closely observed him during summerleague/preseason and in practices (including the ones closed to the public). i know the numbers we have to date don’t scream to me protector-of-ball! your mileage may vary.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t trust a coach that thinks Royal Ivey is a better defender than Jrue Holiday – there’s already enough evidence to prove that wrong.
I don’t trust a coach who has a history of NOT developing rookies
I don’t trust a coach who was brought in because of his ‘vaunted’ princeton offense but either the roster is too stupid to learn it or he’s a horrible teacher cause they aren’t running it.
I don’t trust a coach who won’t bench Sam Dalembert cause he ‘earned’ the starting job in training camp – i’ve seen sam dalembert play for way too many years now, he hasn’t EARNED crap….let alone a starting job….but he’s worried about the ‘psyche’ of the players…i’m sorry but are they NBA players or trans sexuals taking too much estrogen?
It’s not 8 games – it’s jordans track record – if you want to ignore everything he did BEFORE he got to philadephia – that’s fine – but it’s also asinine
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t trust a coach who has a history of NOT developing rookies
based on what?
I don’t trust a coach who was brought in because of his ‘vaunted’ princeton offense but either the roster is too stupid to learn it or he’s a horrible teacher cause they aren’t running it.
anyone who knows about installing offenses has said it takes months for a team to get the PO. 7-8 games? dude, you’ve got to towel off.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
7-8 games
So pre season COUNTS when it involves not playing jrue – but doesn’t count about learning the offense, which they don’t even seem to have the basics of, and jordan himself said they had installed the basics.
As for jordan and rookies – the truth is out there but you can’t be bothered to look for it – so why should I bother telling you – you don’t want to learn.
And that’s it for you ricky
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
tin or profuse sweating
your head’s fairly glowing again. now you believe a handful of games and they should have the PO basically down. there are no words.
ah, the old “the truth is out there” bit. that’s always the signiature line for you tin foilers, huh.
stay tuned for the next installment of the jordan files. get right on that fox magee.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is this...
The three people ahead of Jrue on the ladder are as follows: Lou, WG, Ivey
I understand Lou should be starting, although he can`t defend well, but can you really put up a logical argument telling me that WG and Ivey are better players than Jrue?
I don`t think anyone in the world could do that. Therefore, why shouldn`t Jrue be getting more playing time?
In order to develop, he has to be able to play both poorly and well.
yes we can! (but we don't wannu)
but can you really put up a logical argument telling me that WG and Ivey are better players than Jrue?
In terms of taking care of the ball, the ole A/TO thing, it’s a shocking fact that Willie in a backup role is actually half-way decent and very clearly much better at it than Jrue is right now. That’s a pretty easy case to make, as upsetting as the results might be.
The problem is that we know those two guys basically suck or at least only have bench potential. The new coach however is willing to let dudes prove themselves in the new system. Willie’s done his bit. Ivey…well, amazingly, he actually has a better win score than Jrue right now (look it up!)
I don’t think we should sweat Jrue eventually getting more playing time as he begins to get more aclimated to the speed of the game, better at making smart passes, taking care of the ball, etc. In order for the team to progress with learning the PO, you need to try and maintain whatever rhythm you can get going. Right now, Jrue’s a bit of a crapshoot on the offensive end but I’m sure he’ll continue to earn more and more of coach’s trust. There’s tons of time left for him to develop. Unless the rook’s somehow proven to be of exceptional talent or the team’s in dire need due to injuries, I don’t think non-lottery picks tend to see the floor a whole lot. We can take our time with him and build him up the right way.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
It`s a shocking fact that both WIllie and Ivey have been getting more minutes than Jrue, and thus have more time to put up numbers. It`s also shocking that you don`t need to look up counting numbers to see that Jrue plays better defense than both, is faster than both, with better ball-handling skills and overall better talent.
What`s holding him back is experience. So yes, you should play Green and Ivey more now if you think this team is getting anywhere this year…however, I think it`s obvious to assume they are not. I also think you can assume that both Green and Ivey will be off this team when their contracts expire, whereas Jrue is supposed to be our PG of the future. Why not develop his talent now? Why not develop his talent in every game, against a wide-diversity of opponents?
And as for win scores are concerned, they also pertain to the rotations that particular player is with at the time. Jordan`s rotations, and thus win scores, are for another argument.
priorities
Ah, well I agree with you if the main priority of this early going is to get Jrue reps, then yes, it’s bad that he’s been getting fewer minutes than Willie and Ivey. However I submit that this early part of the season is actually more than about getting Jrue some reps. I think it’s more about getting the offense grooved in as soon as possible and you need steady play from your guards to do that. For all his dripping zippity doo dah talent, Jrue was not able to impress anyone over the summer that he’s a pretty reliable guard just yet. And there’s nothing too bizzare about that considering he’s 19 and didn’t play point guard the year before. It’s a chicken-egg argument to say he hasn’t gotten the reps to prove he’s better—he didn’t get the reps because he didn’t show he was clearly better! Do you see what I mean?
So if coach has a couple guys who are steadier if not nearly as physically gifted, I suggest it’s actually not a bad idea to play them ahead, at least in the beginning, til he’s ready to eclipse them in steady/heady play. I think with the flashes we’ve seen
in the last while (obviously not counting last game), we can expect to see his time increase as it’s been doing all along.
There’s no question that Jrue has more potential than either Willie or Ivey. That’s never been my point. Everyone understands that. But he, in my opinion, is not the team’s main priority right now.
And as for win scores are concerned, they also pertain to the rotations that particular player is with at the time.
I don’t get this. You may be confusing that stat with +/- which I think is a more direct reflection of who else is out there. WS is “designed” to point out a particular player’s contribution to wins. None of these kinds of stats, PER, EFF, etc. are perfect, but WS is probably the least subject to the teamates argument. If win score is more or less meaningless, then they’re all meaningless. It’s interesting though, I thought this was a stat place. Here it is you want to dismiss them when it doesn’t fit your knowledge that Jrue is better. Cog.nit.ive. Dis.o.nance.
(btw, i see you shiny, peeking from behind jefu’s pant leg :P)
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
I would say PER is the least subject to the teamates argument, but faulty nonetheless. I would say WS can be faulty stat becuase you could be the best player out on the floor and therefore the most likely to contribute to a win, but the teamates around you could spoil that from happening. What`s an assist if the guy you pass to misses the wide-open jumper?
As for this being a stat place…it`s a sixers fan blog. Some people like to frequently cite stats, others don`t. And yes, stats shouldn`t be heavily relied upon when they are 8 games into the season. What I`m concerned with is playing time. When you are comparing Jrue to Ivey and Green, Jrue has received significantly less minutes than the other two, yet is clearly more talented than both, and as of right now, is playing better than Ivey, at least.
Again, 8 games into a season, you don`t need to refer to stats to point out that Jrue is better. When each person has logged in averages of 8-10 minutes in 40 games, then refer to stats.
Also, I`m not sure you can point out what you perceived as a mere contradiction and call/misspell it as cognitive dissonance. If you`re going to use your Psych. 101 textbook in a sixers`s blog, I suggest you at least get your facts straight.
Oh, and btw, post your lame insult-comments on philly.com.
i give as i get.
jefu. sir. i don’t believe we’re far apart. there’s common ground here. neither of us believe willie and royal represent the future of the sixers over jrue. we both believe jrue has more talent than either the other two (maybe even combined).
where we seem to disagree is on the urgency of the pace of his acclimation. yes, last game notwithstanding, jrue’s been playing pretty well and i think he’s deserving of more time and as it goes along more consistently, too. but what i think people are too quick to dismiss is how he played up until the season began, especially in comparison to his competition. in my opinion he didn’t distinguish himself.
now if you want to continue to give him 8-10 minutes every game no matter what, fine, that’s a way to go about it, but there’s too much confidence that that’s the only (right/sane) way to go about it. there’s four guards. eventually, coach will sort out who he can rely on and shorten the rotation. we hope that is going to be jrue, and we have growing expectation that it will be jrue. but to say that up until very recently it was a slam dunk no-brainer that jrue should be getting the burn i think is too myopic. shrugs i just think there’s other priorities than jrue right about now. i have confidence it’ll come tho.
now if you mean to say that you’re not much of a stat head personally and don’t give them much weight, ok, fair enough, i guess my comment doesn’t apply to you. but if on the other hand, you do pay attention to stats, then yes it is cognitive dissonance to dismiss what i’m presenting to back up my point. cognitive dissonance is all about contradiction, how you process it. [here the apparent contradiction being a well regarded stat showing ivey is at least as good at this point as jrue, which contradicts your very firmly heldd opinion that jrue’s demonstrably better]. i’m very sure i have my facts straight on that.
Oh, and btw, post your lame insult-comments on philly.com.
You couldn’t possibly be talking about our interaction, which i thought was pretty on the level. You must be referring to some other exchange. This place isn’t big enough for two condescending sonofaguns and you’ve made your preference clear. Good for you. Clarity is a sweet sensation.
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"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." --Yogi Berra
by wryomatic5000 on Nov 12, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions
agree to disagree
You`re right in some regards, we share common ground, but where we differ is a matter of opinion. My point is this – I don`t see this team being a contender this year, so why not spend more time developing a future starting PG rather than play two guys who have one/two year contracts left. I think developing a starter is more important. I`m afraid the sixers` coach won`t develop the rookie correctly. And yes, Jem was correct, Jordan has never sucessfully developed a rookie.
As for me, I wouldn`t call myself a stat head, but I`m even more against being an 8-game stat head. How many consistent stats can you pull from 8 games with three guys who don`t play equal minutes? You can`t determine anything from that. The only thing we know is that this rookie has more talent and it should be developed if this team wants to contend in a couple years.
Cognitive dissonance has more to do with the underlying character traits of why a person contradicts him/herself without recognizing it. Since it`s difficult to play the role of a psychologist on an internet blog, I think it`s safe to say that term shouldn`t be applied here during argument/discussion.
Finally, I`m all about discussing topics on a fair level without condescending remarks; admittingly on a blog it`s difficult to decipher what is and what isn`t.
why..
mess with something thats working though? i hate sam, i want sam gone. but speights seems perfect in the role he’s in now. i like jason smiths hustle and wouldnt mind seeing him start and allow speights to come in and play 4/5 and get minutes at both. honeslty i don’t care how much he makes… i wouldn’t mind giving sam the tinsley/marbury treatment and pay him to go away, based solely on his inability to play basketball, he’d probably do a better job of earning his money that way.
Because I want the sixers to win an NBA title and you won’t win an NBA title with Sam Dalembert playing more than 15 MPG
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
i agree...
thats why im saying why dont we just literally not play Sammy a minute a game? Let our other guys develop. I’m not saying that starting Speights is a bad idea, i want either him or Smith over Sammy. But I’m saying what do you think of the idea of keeping Speights where he is, since he seems to thrive coming off the bench with energy, and try Smith as the starter? If that don’t work we can always see how it works the other way around… as long as Sammy is out of the lineup, I’m happy.. so i guess no matter what you say, I’ll pretty much agree.
by joe_digiacomo on Nov 12, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
I think if Sam accepted his role as a bench player and learned what he could and couldn’t do he could be a pretty good defensive asset, think theo ratliff in 2001
by jemagee on Nov 12, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
Sam learn what he can and cannot do?
That will never happen- that I am sure of.
With Sam you must take the good with the bad. Sort of like when AI was here, just with more bad.
http://www.phillyarena.com - Philly sports forum/blog
by tk76 on Nov 12, 2009 9:36 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Sam will do what he’s told or he won’t play. This is Eddie Jordan’s team and he’s going to run it his way and try to win games. So he’s not going to rely on a rookie to run the point until he proves himself in the coach’s eyes that he’ll do better than Willie Green on that opposing player. If it’s a close game, he won’t even experiment because he wants to win.
That’s why Brand isn’t getting minutes either. I’d say that Jordan has been feeling out his line-up and learning how to use the roster. He appears to have gotten progressively better over the course of the season, but still needs to be better prepared to manage players time, as some of them were on the floor too long.
I would say he cost us some games with his substitutions, but the early part of the season is for the coach to learn as well. I can guarantee you that if Jordan thinks he would get more wins playing Holiday right now instead of Green he would.
I’m still waiting for him to give Jason Smith a shot at playing Center, which I think would have a more significant impact than our 2nd string point guard. I also see Carney earning more minutes as the coach gains confidence in him.
I see the team running the Princeton more and more. Iguodala’s dunk was a give and go with Elton Brand. The Princeton is working, but it takes discipline to run it against a zone. The team is getting better at it all the time. In fact they’re getting open looks and just need to be more consistent. Still waiting for them to have all 5 players be hot at the same time.
Sam will do what he’s told or he won’t play
History indicates that you’re completely and totally wrong.
I wish people would pay attention to how the sixers are run before saying things like this – sam does pretty much whatever he wants on the floor, when he’s disciplined or benched, he whines about it, and magically he’s back in the starting line up.
There’s a difference between Brand And Dalembert (many) and one of them is that Sam is a selfish whiny bitch and brand cares more about the team than ‘his minutes’
Sam could learn something from Brand, then again he could learn something fro the Bala CynWyd 8th grad basketball team probably
by jemagee on Nov 13, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
In the PAST they had to play Sam. They didn’t have anyone behind him who was any better. The Sixers can’t move Sam and they can’t make him look any better than he is. It is not in the Sixers interest to play him if Smith or Speights does a better job. Sam can whine all he wants and it will only make him less appealing when he becomes a free agent. I think Sam has been doing a pretty good job on the defensive end but is beyond his limits offensively. As Speights improves on defense, Jordan is relying on him more and more. Smith needs minutes to demonstrate his effectiveness. He is better than I thought and he deserves more time.
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